Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods

@black_wriggler said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

I wonder if with a little adjustment it could turn off multiple fabs in one go rather than over the course of several ticks, which would have a similar overall affect on sim speed and help prevent an actual e-stall.

@Jip
I like this idea. I imagine setting it to be able to toggle something like 3 fabs per tick would make sense.

Also, it might be a good idea to do smth like add a 3rd case to the mass fab toggle, where the 3 cases would be:

1. Automanage (uses your new system) - this would be the default
2. Disabled (does not use your new system)
3. Enabled (does not use your new system)

The code can not be customized via options. Where the UI is not in sync and callbacks to the simulation are synced up, the simulation is always in sync. It can not access the game options as those are different for everyone, and those options are not synced between players. They are on your local disk. At best it can access the lobby options where you can turn it on or off for all players.

Any suggestion to sync preference files is undesirable as we have no authentication in-game. It would allow anyone to change your settings.

As Ftx mentions, I'd rather just turn it on by default or not have the feature at all.

@penguin_ said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

I imagine setting it to be able to toggle something like 3 fabs per tick would make sense.

The reason it is as low as it is is to:

• (1) Give players that take manual control a serious competitive advantage
• (2) Make the creation of t3 mass fabricators more favorable over t2 as one fabricator is toggled on or off, regardless of tech or consumption.

(1) is important to make the feature easy to use, difficult to master. Casual players can compensate the slow rate by having more energy storage or by only building t3 fabricators.
(2) is a win-win from a performance perspective: we both reduce the automated toggling of fabricators and we slightly change the meta to prefer t3 fabricators over t2 fabricators for casual games.

At the moment it is not unusual to see players make hundreds of t2 fabricators. All these add to the sim, and they're only made in such numbers because of eco-manager allowing them to be responsive.

One t3 fabricator is worth up to 16 t2 fabricators production wise, and about 30 if you compare the construction costs. That is 16x to 30x the performance hit, as individual units count up towards the simulation!

I think people overstate the usefulness of the eco management, except for maybe the mass fab parts + prevent stall to keep shields up late game.

Maybe integrate some of the UI features and if/when mass fab management is in the base game the mod can be removed from the vault. I haven't been maintaining it for years anyway.

New UI options available for all players and better performance by providing sim-side data:

• Mex overlay for level / upgrade status
• Build status% of your teammates nukes / anti
• Mex upgrade: One click / right click assist start mex upgrade

Features which already moved into FAF:

• Upgrade shields multiple levels at once
• Queue up acu/scu enhancements with shift
• Auto build mex storage rings

Features that can be removed:

• Autoshare

Only shares resources with other ecomanager players. Had a use in the RAS air builds @ setons but now useless, replaced by one click share in the UI.

Only nice thing is when the ACU dies it instantly dumps all units / mass / energy to the rest of the team instead of 5+ second delay

• Energy throttle

Basically only useful for mass fabs and somewhat prevent shield stall late game. Otherwise mess up more than it helps

• Mass throttle

Not very efficient and cannot compete with someone semi-competent manually upgrading mexes.

Currently working on mods ecosystem and I want mention here some of them, replacing functions of Eco manager:

• TeamInfo share: shares data with teammates about nukes/smds and exps completions
• Idle Engineers light: shows idle engineers/ factories and upgrading mexes (all of it is toggable through UI mods options)
• Eco Ui tools: stolen reworked UI party mex panel

Just put all the non-controversial options of eco manager into a new mod and upload that. Then we can blacklist eco manager in peace

How many successful competitive games have you seen with optional per-player mods? It's not gaming here, it's gaming + coding. UI mods should not be allowed in ranked and tournaments.

@melanol said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

How many successful competitive games have you seen with optional per-player mods?

Gonna go with 100% of them

@melanol said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

UI mods should not be allowed in ranked and tournaments.

Even assuming we wanted to implement it, how would you enforce that?

Gonna go with 100% of them

What universe are you from?

Even assuming we wanted to implement it, how would you enforce that?

How am I supposed to know?

Oh I see you meant "competitive games" as in DOTA and CS:GO, I thought you meant in the context of FAF games, in which case I can't think of a single tournament that banned UI mods.

As soon as you personally finance all our touraments to happen at lan events in your 3rd mansion we can ban all ui mods from events.

@ftxcommando said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

As soon as you personally finance all our touraments to happen at lan events in your 3rd mansion we can ban all ui mods from events.

Nope, i would implement a game option to disable ALL UI mods, and anchor those functions inside the sim-state of the game so you can't bypass it.
Problem solved

i'd be mostly fine without UI mods, but probably would be less enjoyable to play without spread move and disperce move, target priorities, ect ect

People who use something like selection deprioritiser might not adapt so easily, but i may be wrong

Wasn't spread move already removed with the recent patch?

Only split attack works for me and I asked in the lobby and people told me it was basically cheating, so it was removed.

@uveso said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

@ftxcommando said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

As soon as you personally finance all our touraments to happen at lan events in your 3rd mansion we can ban all ui mods from events.

Nope, i would implement a game option to disable ALL UI mods, and anchor those functions inside the sim-state of the game so you can't bypass it.
Problem solved

Every solution creates 8 new problems.

It is not possible to ban UI mods entirely - we can only make it more difficult.

Banning UI mods without implementing some of the better ones into the game explicitly would be a horrible idea.

Well, by banning UI mods I actually meant "after integrating some into FAF and then occasionally integrating new ones".

And how exactly is the community gonna figure out decent ones to integrate when they’re banned from all competitive play?

I just use common mod tools and ui-party so I can play windowed dual screen using a autohotkey script (see https://forum.faforever.com/topic/123/guide-fake-fullscreen-and-optimisation/57). I have issues using the secondary adapter method, it does not display correctly for me as I use 3 monitors.

As far as mods which add new functionality like spread move or target priorities these should either be added to the base game or banned.

@ftxcommando said in Ban EcoManager & Similar Mods:

And how exactly is the community gonna figure out decent ones to integrate when they’re banned from all competitive play?

By testing them in non-ladder and non-tournament games.

Why do you always discard any idea proposed in the forum as garbage?