SACU Rebalance

snoog

Regen field definitely sounds like it makes more sense for Cybran. Maybe give Sera some kind of shield field? Not a bubble shield, but give shield to units within the area.

Jip

A few notes from a developer / ux perspective:

(1) Anything 'area'-like is expensive. It needs constant re-evaluation. Units may lose the buff for a few ticks, just to gain it again. Units (with aura's) may stack up. Therefore whatever we do, it needs to be simple.
(2) Anything that you can not communicate to the player in a reasonable fashion should be a no-no. The game is complicated enough as it is, it doesn't need aura's that complicate it even further.

With that said:

The suggestion to add dynamically shields is a no-no from a performance perspective. Shields are fairly expensive to (de)allocate and in their general use because of overspill. There's a reason that the Lua file for shields is super large.
The suggestion of a cloaking field is a no-no from a game perspective, especially if it applies to structures. The shader of cloaked units is relatively expensive to compute (because it is transparent). And structures once scouted are visible to your enemy, no matter how hard you try to cloak and/or stealth it. This is obvious to your enemy, but not to you as a player who owns the cloaking field as the game does not communicate to you what the intel of your enemy is.
The suggestion of a damage aura that deals damage to enemy units is also a no-no in my opinion. The damage effects that you would apply are likely not visible when zoomed out. And if the damage applies through the fog of war (which is also not trivial to compute properly. What does it even mean, is a radar blip sufficient?) then it is very difficult in general to communicate to the user where the damage originates from, which is something that is usually very simple in this game: wherever the projectile originated from. Let alone - how do you balance this? What if there are 10 SACUs with a damage aura?

And in general: stun is a very annoying mechanic in this game. The reason is simple: if a unit is stunned long enough then for some reason the engine decides to drop the current order. Usually units do not have more than 1 order, so the moment the unit is available again it will just stand there waiting to die. Let alone that stun immediately stops a unit in its track, which also prevents projectiles that are already fired by weapons to hit the target as they expected the target to not stop dead in its tracks like a normal unit. Therefore Chrono on SACUs is a no-go in my opinion.

A few thematic suggestions on things that are cheap to compute:

UEF: Jammers, optics (vision/radar) and (bubble) shields on the SACU. That fits the theme of the UEF where they use conventional tools to dominate the battlefield. They would of course need to be adjusted to become more useful. The game fully supports these type of area effects and stacking of SACUs with these area effects has little benefit.
Cybran: Initially the faction was called 'Recyclers'. The theme of the Cybran is utility and the idea of improvising and adapting. What I'd suggest is to re-use the build drones. But instead of them only slowing up when building, the build drones now hang around the SACU and assists nearby (not-moving) allied units by repairing them (for free) or by reclaiming nearby wrecks (at a relative low rate, but the SACU can move and do whatever while the drones reclaim). The game fully supports these type of aura's and stacking of SACUs with these aura-like effects has little benefit.
Aeon: Optics (vision/omni) and a new aura that buffs nearby units with shields. The buff is simple: it removes the delay that a shield has before it starts to regenerate. As a result the shield will always regenerate, where as usually there's a small delay (of a few seconds) before it starts to regenerate. The game fully supports these type of aura's and stacking of SACUs with these aura-like effects has no benefit.
Seraphim: Just OC and no aura-like effect. I agree with @FtXCommando that the energy costs need to be simplified so that it doesn't drain all of your economy. I'm personally also a huge fan of the lambda field mechanic of BlackOps, but then decently balanced.

And in general, SACUs with RAS should explode more violently to make it easier to create a chain reaction like with tech 3 resource production. I also agree with @FtXCommando that non-engineering presets need to be really bad at engineering. They can start it, but need help to finish it up.

snoog

Great write-up Jip, I'm a fan of everything you suggested.

Firv

Jamming still seems like a waste of a slot. It serves no real purpose, its easy to spot and basicly does the exact opposite. The only slightly usefull jamming is on the uef frigrate, all other jamming seems so useless imho. Unless someone can explain to me how to effectivly use jamming

Exselsior

Agreed. Jamming on works on things you make a lot of and you make later in the game. Jamming on units that commonly end up fighting in vision range doesn't do much, and jamming on things you don’t make a lot of is also pointless. This leaves frigs as one of the few units where jamming is kind of nice on in practice, forces scouting like stealth does for cybran navy. Still weaker than stealth, but it does something. Even then it’s only relevant later in the game when you’ve got destros and battleships fighting outside of vision range.

That said, this could be a bad idea but I’m throwing it out there anyway. What if UEF SACUs get jamming and shield dome at the same time same slot. So shield dome gives them jamming as well. Additionally, they get buffed jamming that throws more radar signatures than normal jamming and also has a longer range.

That way they have counter intel in beyond visual range fights and it’s not an utterly useless add on when there’s vision on them, which is most fights.

Exselsior

Another idea that might be impossible, but is optical jamming something they could do? So not only is there radar jamming, but they could have holographic images of the sacu projected randomly around them. This would only be counter by Omni or by paying close attention. That might be too op/unfun to play against but it’s an idea I suppose.

Edit: Could be something like it both projects images of the SACU but also other units like titans, parashields, flak, etc. These projections also have a radar signature if there’s no Omni. So basically just massively buffed radar jamming.

Elusive

Jamming could be put into UEF SACUS at base (cant waste a slot if it doesnt take a slot!) but that does leave a gap in the support for preset and I can't think of anything useful to add there that isnt just a basic stat up like extra sensor range. I suppose there could be a 'high intensity jamming' upgrade that just amps the jamming effect up to 11.

Nomander

optical jamming

I think it's possible: you create a list of units that can be holograms, and then in the blueprint loading phase you create hologram units out of that list.
The holograms would have 1 hp and are spawned attached to the hologram generator, with a long respawn time, which allows the enemy to clear out the holograms by shooting them (otherwise they would permanently break targeting unless omni comes into range or units are manually retargeted).
Target priority switching can be modified sim side to prevent setting priorities that ignore holograms.

Nomander

@jip said in SACU Rebalance:

if a unit is stunned long enough then for some reason the engine decides to drop the current order

Chrono can't stun lock units, so this issue shouldn't show up.

On a related note, my concern for Chrono is that it's going to be annoying to desynchronize the Chronos for max stun duration if stuns are protected from for less than the reload time of Chrono (ex: 5 second stun, 10 second stun protection, 30 second reload requires microing 3 Chronos).

(bubble) shields on the SACU ... stacking of SACUs with these area effects has little benefit.

The spillover mechanics won't cause making multiple shields to have little benefit.

With the current mobile shield spillover of 0.3x, the 3rd stacked shield would contribute 0.49x of its hp, for a total of 2.19x. That's not mentioning that SACU bubbles have 0.2x multi, so you can stack 4 of them for 2.95x total hp and the 4th shield contributing 0.51x hp. Graph

Sure there are diminishing returns here, but it's not literally 1 unit per army, especially since you can avoid overspill by microing to cycle shields. Compare that to Chrono or regen aura which clearly have no benefit from stacking if they are implemented like the ACU versions.

new aura that buffs nearby units with shields. ... The game fully supports these type of aura's

Wouldn't this require Lua very similar to regen aura? If it does, then it goes against the idea that Seraphim can't have regen aura SACU because of performance concerns.

SACUs with RAS should explode more violently to make it easier to create a chain reaction like with tech 3 resource production

This goes completely against RAS SACU's durable but extremely inefficient eco concept.

Jip

@nomander said in SACU Rebalance:

Chrono can't stun lock units, so this issue shouldn't show up.

Users will expect it though , which brings another problem - communicating that this is indeed not possible. In general I think it's an option that lacks creativity anyway.

@nomander said in SACU Rebalance:

With the current mobile shield spillover of 0.3x, the 3rd stacked shield would contribute 0.49x of its hp, for a total of 2.19x. That's not mentioning that SACU bubbles have 0.2x multi, so you can stack 4 of them for 2.95x total hp and the 4th shield contributing 0.51x hp. Graph

I wasn't referring to stacking, I was referring to covering your army of Percivals with extremely strong shields. They don't need to be stacked on top of each other to be 'stacked', if you have 4 SACUs and 40 Percivals and line them up in a decent formation then you have 'stacked' the shields without them being on top of each other, or being vulnerable to (significant) overspill.

@nomander said in SACU Rebalance:

Wouldn't this require Lua very similar to regen aura? If it does, then it goes against the idea that Seraphim can't have regen aura SACU because of performance concerns.

Yes, same concept. I don't think I stated that regen aura can't be done because of performance reasons. I did not mention it because I think the option lacks creativity.

@nomander said in SACU Rebalance:

This goes completely against RAS SACU's durable but extremely inefficient eco concept.

That's why we're here - to change the concept of SACUs .

@exselsior said in SACU Rebalance:

Another idea that might be impossible, but is optical jamming something they could do? So not only is there radar jamming, but they could have holographic images of the sacu projected randomly around them. This would only be counter by Omni or by paying close attention. That might be too op/unfun to play against but it’s an idea I suppose.

I'm sure it is possible, but I don't think we should go into that direction.

@firv said in SACU Rebalance:

Jamming still seems like a waste of a slot. It serves no real purpose, its easy to spot and basicly does the exact opposite.

It's actually quite strong - I often see units firing their first salvo's into fake blips when engaging an army with jamming capabilities. Sure, it won't last. But I don't think it should last, that would make it too strong

Chenbro101

Ok, so how about an upgrade that increases capture range and speed? Call it hack module or something. So for cybran sacu they would have something like hack, emp gun and AA? Would that make a good enough support ACU?

snoog

@chenbro101 said in SACU Rebalance:

Ok, so how about an upgrade that increases capture range and speed? Call it hack module or something. So for cybran sacu they would have something like hack, emp gun and AA? Would that make a good enough support ACU?

I could see the independent drone swarm idea Jip mentioned being used for capturing units. Could be interesting, but sounds like a lot of work to make feel right and not be too OP.

For UEF support SACUs, what about attack drones?

TankenAbard

If auras in general are out, there are other options. With the Aeon, the heavy shield pack could help tank damage similar to a GC so that harbingers could do work. Seraphim is fine with Light Overcharge, if personal shields are out then maybe Nano1 and Nano2 like the commander?, UEF is good with the heavy shield dome, Cybran getting a light microwave laser would be interesting as a body slot, leaving them with less HP but high damage output.

I like how SACUs generally function now, but their cost and other balances need to be rebalanced.

Also, when I go to spawn in Cybran SACU, before it is placed it has a jetpack. What's up with that?

CocaineDiesel

@chenbro101

Or, or, or a Cybran sacrifice module, but it captures instead of constructing.

Let me float another idea for an enhancement that interacts with wreck veterancy* as well, like it pulls whatever veterancy the dead unit had and applies it to the SACU, or stores and/or distributes it to nearby friendlies. (This also feels Cybran coded to me, but not too strongly.)

*Unit veterancy would need to be stored on the wreck on death.

veteranashe

@chenbro101 said in SACU Rebalance:

Ok, so how about an upgrade that increases capture range and speed? Call it hack module or something. So for cybran sacu they would have something like hack, emp gun and AA? Would that make a good enough support ACU?

Remove the gun and install a capture module that captures really fast at range. The thing with capture you have to put the unit on hold fire otherwise it might kill the unit.

Nomander

@jip said in SACU Rebalance:

That's why we're here - to change the concept of SACUs .

Do you have an alternative function for RAS SACUs in mind that requires them to be more volatile? Just increasing the death explosion damage just hurts the beneficial aspects of an already inefficient unit. I also think the concept of RAS SACUs doesn't need to be changed, it fits the game fine.

I wasn't referring to stacking, I was referring to covering your army of Percivals with extremely strong shields. They don't need to be stacked on top of each other to be 'stacked', if you have 4 SACUs and 40 Percivals and line them up in a decent formation then you have 'stacked' the shields without them being on top of each other, or being vulnerable to (significant) overspill.

I don't understand your definition of "stacked" and how it aligns with the rework. For me stacking the effects means when a single unit (Percy) benefits from multiple different supports (bubble SACU), which is a behavior that promotes building multiple support SACU per group of units.

Nomander

@tankenabard said in SACU Rebalance:

If auras in general are out

Auras aren't out, just very complicated area effects are. I think what @Jip meant was more of a warning about having area effects than to discard auras. Not sure what level of complexity is unacceptable.

@tankenabard said in SACU Rebalance:

With the Aeon, the heavy shield pack could help tank damage similar to a GC so that harbingers could do work.

A tank needs to be threatening in some capacity to help tank damage because target priorities exist. Currently Aeon SACU only has a 300 DPS long range AoE gun.

@tankenabard said in SACU Rebalance:

Seraphim is fine with Light Overcharge, if personal shields are out then maybe Nano1 and Nano2 like the commander?

If it's an upgrade then it makes an OP (or T4-tier) 50k hp + regen + 35 range OC SACU. Idk if that's actually overpowered so here's an alternative:

Honestly the only use of the shield right now is tele sacu, so you could just put the HP boost of the shield as a prerequisite upgrade for tele or integrate it into tele. Tele conflicts with OC so you won't get an OP OC SACU, and if it's a prerequisite then you can have a 50k hp 400 DPS gun SACU for some reason. Or a 30k HP engi SACU (this is bad going by the current ideology for engi SACU in the rework).

Also you could apply the same idea to Aeon SACU to make its tele relevant by adding HP to tele or making tele compatible with the shield upgrade. Otherwise Aeon tele SACU should be like 2-3x cheaper because it's 15k hp 300 DPS vs 30k/50k hp 400 DPS.

Elusive

Sera shield has its uses outside of tele, it is most certainly a good upgrade, costing Less than half the mass cost of the unit for more than doubling its health. It is just held in obscurity by the unviability of SACUs themselves. The total removal of it without adequate compensation would greatly hurt the unit overall.
Seras SACUs are in a bit of a uniqe position currently as their higher base damage, no RAS and some of the strongest combat upgrades, both offensively and defensively, push them into being the most combat focused SACU of any faction, a feature that I do think would be worth keeping in mind for the rebalance.

Nomander

Sera shield conflicts with gun range/sensors, I really doubt it's any good.

It isn't a doubling of HP because every Sera combat SACU gets nano which is 29500 HP, and the shield gives 20k HP (+66% HP). This isn't accounting for veterancy which gives 3k HP per level with nano.
- The shield also has a very slow recharge of 165s (125 effective regen) and regen of 22, massively overshadowed by 265 regen of Nano and the DPS amounts you're dealing with at T3.5-T4 stage of the game.
Taking the shield upgrade over the gun range upgrade reduces the range of the gun and OC from 35 to 25, which basically means the SACU must run into enemy T3s which have obscene DPS compared to T4s and will totally get rid of the 20k HP shield. Bricks/Percies can also kite a 25 range SACU, having equal/greater speed + 10 more range.
- T4s should never come without T3 support, so you can't even use shield OC SACU (it has to be multiple of them too) to tank damage to get in range and kill T4s.

Theory aside, I've also never seen it used in games outside of 2x commander move speed survivals with extreme eco/build range/build rate multipliers (SACU are unreclaimable and this one has the highest HP of them all).

CumCitron

I have read pretty much all the replies to this thread, and I am shocked that the priority isn't to address the two blatant broken mechanics with SACUs :

virtually unkillable movable eco. (by far the worst)
excessively hard to kill underwater reclaiming machines which makes them pay back for themselves in a few secs after they got dropped in the sea.

Could we make Quantuum Gateway "unassistable" by engies or stations/hives ?
or Could the Quantuum Gateway assist be made "high demand" like nuke/anti nuke ?
RAS upgrade should be make significantly more expensive, if not removed at all
Is it possible to reduce the HP of the unit while it is under water ? Or decrease his reclaiming BP to a marginal number under water ?

Aside, the sera tele TML mechanic is very OP. IMHO this should be looked into as it is very costly to defend key strctures against it, i.e. muuuch higher investment to defend against it "just in case".

Side note : The changes to the gateway costs will be transparent. At the stage where you can build gateway(s), those costs changes do not matter a single bit.