Telemazer - time for change?
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I love when random people on the forums say skill issue to people 10x better than them. My favorite is still someone saying skill issue to Blodir, but this is a nice second for now.
@thecodemander said in Telemazer - time for change?:
@waffelzNoob you disagree that it costs multiple T3 Pgens to make tele? Dont know what to tell you. If you have enough extra power to rush tele and continue making air while doing so at full tilt then youve objectively paid more in PGens.
Your entire position is "I have lots of things, I could too easily make tele" which costs a lot more than the counter for tele which is using eyes to scout.
You then state in your reply that everyone pauses air while making tele which is just countering your own argument.
Late game team games on maps that aren't gap can actually be fairly hard/expensive to defend against tele. It's often pretty easy to pause stuff for 30s or whatever to make tele and then do more damage to the enemy team than the lost 30s of production cost you.
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@exselsior Literally got out of a game where there was like 40 teles and it was the most fun I've had on faf in weeks, all made possible by fast tele.
Late game team games on maps that aren't gap can actually be fairly hard/expensive to defend against tele.
God forbid there might stategies in this game that are effective at doing damage.
It's often pretty easy to pause stuff for 30s or whatever to make tele and then do more damage to the enemy team than the lost 30s of production cost you.
Its not like anyone will notice you having 50+ less ASF. Its not like amy airfight ever has been won or lost by a difference of 50 ASF and its not like any game has ever been won with air.
If a desperate enemy makes tele and you still cant win air from them when they sink 50+ ASF of E into teleing things that dont matter to you, then that is actually a skill issue.
I have yet to see any of you address my original point: if you have so much of the map that you cant defend all of it from tele, and the enemy can only tele fringe mexes then why haven't you won the game already? Its implicit in that argument you have so much more of the map and mass than the enemy so you should already have won. Which sounds an awful lot like a skill issue.
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4 core bases require 10 pd each = 40 t2 pd, say there is an smd/arty base somewhere else for another 10 needed t2 pd, that's 27,000 mass in protection.
That's enough mass to build the pgens to finish teleport in a little bit over a minute without harming your team's net spent eco.
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@thecodemander I don't know what to tell you, I have yet to see you address any of the points being made. Literally, your entire position is that telemazor is fun and everyone who disagrees with you has an actual skill issue. I'm going to need you to understand that objectively the cost of tele defense is mass-equivalent to the cost of a late-game teleport upgrade.
God forbid someone might ask you to change your tone. You then stated in your reply that I should cope harder I guess. Maybe nobody told you this, but condescending to people will never not be cringe. So, just to be clear, I'm literally done. I'm going back to Reddit.
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Find me someone that can scout and keep an eye on every enemy ACU all game with enough detail to know when/if they're upgrading and what upgrade they're going for without severely screwing their own APM and I'll show you an AI.
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Maybe give the Gateway a small area of teleport denial a la Black Ops as a subsidy for tele defense, makes some sense from a crunch point since there is already a subcom being ported into that point in the map.
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@ftxcommando said in Telemazer - time for change?:
4 core bases require 10 pd each = 40 t2 pd, say there is an smd/arty base somewhere else for another 10 needed t2 pd, that's 27,000 mass in protection.
That's enough mass to build the pgens to finish teleport in a little bit over a minute without harming your team's net spent eco.
Doesn't that argument work for nukes as well? You need at least 3 SMD to somewhat defend from a nuke on Setons, which is 1.5x more than the nuke costs. Even then you can e.g. nuke the islands or naval production.
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@mazornoob It does but tele bad I guess
That's enough mass to build the pgens to finish teleport in a little bit over a minute without harming your team's net spent eco.
Tell me more about how you understand that if you have that many core bases to afford other ways to win the game and prevent the enemy going tele. There are many things which cost less than 27,000 mass, counter and either counter tele or win you the game. If making like 10 mercies and some air scouts for like 3k mass is too expensive for you, then I dont know how to help you.
I don't know what to tell you, I have yet to see you address any of the points being made. Literally, your entire position is that telemazor is fun and everyone who disagrees with you has an actual skill issue. I'm going to need you to understand that objectively the cost of tele defense is mass-equivalent to the cost of a late-game teleport upgrade.
My position is that tele is barely viable as a last resort and that people who dont understand how easily it can be countered/rendered useless should try to make it work in the ways they claim. I've yet to see tele abused in a game breaking way. 95% of teles that work are executed against people who deserve to lose because they didnt scout the upgrade, kept their ACUs somewhere stupid, didnt hear the portal, move out the way or use their BP to build any counter to it.
God forbid someone might ask you to change your tone. You then stated in your reply that I should cope harder I guess. Maybe nobody told you this, but condescending to people will never not be cringe. So, just to be clear, I'm literally done. I'm going back to Reddit.
And now I suspect youre bad clown take was on purpose to bait people to correct you so you could post this. Who hurt you? Show us on the doll where the persecution fetish came from.
@MazorNoob has the most rational obvious point on this: Nukes cost about the same, also can go everywhere, have massive AOE, need actual T3 and lots of E to defend a small area and dont rob the enemy team of APM. Oh and they have submerged, mobile stealth launchers.
If Someone feels that they're too bad at the game to defend from tele, how about leaving it alone and making the portal louder?
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@TheCodemander I don't think you could've missed my point harder. Well done.
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@waffelznoob you didnt make one though. You dropped a cringe attempt at a rebuttal to mine.
Nice try memeing though
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@thecodemander said in Telemazer - time for change?:
That's enough mass to build the pgens to finish teleport in a little bit over a minute without harming your team's net spent eco.
Tell me more about how you understand that if you have that many core bases to afford other ways to win the game and prevent the enemy going tele. There are many things which cost less than 27,000 mass, counter and either counter tele or win you the game. If making like 10 mercies and some air scouts for like 3k mass is too expensive for you, then I dont know how to help you.
This may come as as shock to you, but the enemy has the same number of core bases, and you might not be Cybran or at least not want to cheese with tele!
Nukes cost about the same, also can go everywhere, have massive AOE, need actual T3 and lots of E to defend a small area and dont rob the enemy team of APM. Oh and they have submerged, mobile stealth launchers.
Nukes were also recently nerfed, much for the same reason. They're also far, far easier to scout with enough notice than tele is, and SMDs offer a large no go range for nukes.
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@mazornoob said in Telemazer - time for change?:
@ftxcommando said in Telemazer - time for change?:
4 core bases require 10 pd each = 40 t2 pd, say there is an smd/arty base somewhere else for another 10 needed t2 pd, that's 27,000 mass in protection.
That's enough mass to build the pgens to finish teleport in a little bit over a minute without harming your team's net spent eco.
Doesn't that argument work for nukes as well? You need at least 3 SMD to somewhat defend from a nuke on Setons, which is 1.5x more than the nuke costs. Even then you can e.g. nuke the islands or naval production.
Yeah that’s why nukes are insane and were nerfed several times now.
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I dont like the teleport mechanic, but I think it should be left in the game. I think that a good way to balance it would be that enemy teleports within omni range it is pinged as a nuke ping would be, rather than just the visual icon. This would give a few more seconds of time to move units into position.
Teleport in higher rated teamgames does not improve the game, does not require much skill and does not carry much risk.
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@ftxcommando 100% agree telemazer is a horrible mechanic for the game.
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On a serperate note nukes still need a harder nerf so stupid to lose a game just cuz you didn't scout and area for 2 min. And the risk reward is also ridiculous for example 1 nuke which can kill 150k mass while only risking 25k mass or whatever worst case scenario the guy just nukes something else and its extremely rare that it actually doesn't pay for itself or he holds it makes 60k mass in starts snipes the smd then kills 150k mass and wins the game.
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150k mass in ur base and u couldnt spare 10k to make and load an smd
and if he makes a nuke and 60k mass worth of strats, you should in theory have something worth 70-80k mass to kill him with
unless all of that 70-80k mass went into t3 pgens/mass fabs/ras bois, in which case you deserve to get punished -
@waffelznoob said in Telemazer - time for change?:
150k mass in ur base and u couldnt spare 10k to make and load an smd
and if he makes a nuke and 60k mass worth of strats, you should in theory have something worth 70-80k mass to kill him with
unless all of that 70-80k mass went into t3 pgens/mass fabs/ras bois, in which case you deserve to get punishedFunny how this logic translates pretty nicely into teledef.
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The people who say that tele gets easily scouted, I mean if t3 acu without any engies on that is staying under water you have no chance to see if the ACU gets upgraded into telemazer. In fact, if he upgrades on their base with assist, does not particularly mean he upgrades tele, he might upgrade stealth/cloak to get more hp or tech 3 for same reason. Whereas nuke is definetely seen and can be easily scouted, like u literally see the building itself.
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I'm sorry for ever doubting you, The ThecodeMander. I hope we can put our past differences aside and continue as friends.
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@gabitii Considering when people usually make tele (late game, cybran player on the losing team with lots of PGens), the infrastructure it needs, the length of the upgrade (not much late game takes that long and munches that much E to the point it often isnt all out assisted) in many cases you dont even need to scout.
Teledef on important things also defends you from other things going tele like the sera sacus which are viable to remove SMDs.
The cost of protecting the really vital stuff from tele is really not that much compared to the cost of protecting from a nuke.
I have seen the fact it doesnt show up on the minimap as a special unit come up a bit though so that could be a really good idea IMO instead of increasing the time for something that isnt really that viable at the moment and making it pretty much pointless. Maybe the balance team wants to rework it like they're doing with mercies at the moment, who knows.
IMO a much easier first step would be to make the tele portal sound louder/more distinct since the opinions on it being heard are mixed right now. I hear it just fine but I've also heard from people who basically never hear it. A minimap icon type thing I think would be a really good change with no downside, but on that point I've also heard that it is technically more challenging to accomplish which makes it a future possibility at best.
@waffelznoob said in Telemazer - time for change?:
I'm sorry for ever doubting you, The ThecodeMander. I hope we can put our past differences aside and continue as friends.
I was just trolling dont worry about it. From what I've read/heard lately theres a lot of salt aimed at things that snipe ACUs. I'm not sure I agree with all positions on both sides and I'm reasonably happy to agree that the way tele works right now is not great for a lot of people but I also think that changing the tele time is not the solution here.
IMO taking options off the table, be they snipes or not is not the way to go since it is actively reducing the scope of viable plays and what makes FAF fun IMO is the breadth of available of options at any given time. What should be focussed on more is that currently tele is catching people out because it is too subtle for how some people play the game and that there are things we could do to improve that aspect of tele for those people instead of limiting its viability and what you can do with it since I think this is marginal right now given its costs.
