Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?
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I thought bp was increased on t2 mexes so this was less of an advantage
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ok I can see this mechanics can be one of the aspects of mastering the game (when to do or not to do ctrl+k instead upgrade)
Still I don't like this overcomplicated technique.
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In my opinion it looks like a bug that become feature. Since it exists in FAF for ages and people get used to it i doubt that it will be ever changed. But it is very counterintuitive and may lead to accidental ctrl+k of something valuable like already rebuilt t3 mex or even comm. When i started to play FAF i legit had to make ui mod just to make sure i won't ctrl+k something else
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I was also of the assumption this hasn't really been worth doing for quite a while now.
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My only problem with this exploit is that it seems non-intuitive, and it’s not something that could be effectively conveyed in a loading screen tip
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Cost to build t2 mex - 900 mass
Cost to upgrade t1 mex to t2 mex - 900 massCost to build t2 radar - 180 mass
Cost to upgrade t1 radar to t2 radar - 180 massCost to build t3 UEF shield - 3300 mass
Cost to upgrade t2 shield to t3 shield - 3300 massThe "counterintuitive" aspect is adding a weird rule to t3 mex upgrades. The game is perfectly consistent. The only area the game doesn't work like this is support factories.
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It's rare that people will upgrade a lot of radars, but it's normal to upgrade multiple support factories and mexes.
It's only fair to make people pay extra for the privilege of upgrading a shield in place when a certain faction can't even do that at all.
It just comes down to this: do we want to give people the option to do a little song and dance, to trade APM in exchange for about 600 extra mass? Or do we want to streamline the game here.
I'm definitely in favor of streamlining the game by equalizing the cost of upgrading in place vs. ctrl-k trick. The game is complicated enough. Making it a little simpler here is more good than bad.
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@greensubmarine said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:
In my opinion it looks like a bug that become feature. Since it exists in FAF for ages and people get used to it i doubt that it will be ever changed. But it is very counterintuitive and may lead to accidental ctrl+k of something valuable like already rebuilt t3 mex or even comm. When i started to play FAF i legit had to make ui mod just to make sure i won't ctrl+k something else
I had problems accidently cntrl+k things I didn't mean to so what I do now when I use this technique (very rarely) is I just use my engies to reclaim the mex then build the t3 so there is no risk to make that mistake.
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This is a pretty counter-intuitive game mechanic, but pretty much everyone learns about it if they are trying to get better. It's one of those "spend apm, gain a slight advantage" kind of things which i dont really love as it doesn't add anything to the game strategy-wise, but just forces higher apm to maximize your play. I don't really mind it either though, and don't think there is much of a good solution without changing game mechanics significantly. However, just reducing the upgrade cost vs the straight build cost for mexes I wouldn't mind either.
One thing that REALLY DOES bug me, is the time for the animation of the mex ctrl-k that you have to wait for before you can place the t3 mex order. Can we speed that up? It's only like 2 seconds or something, but then when the game is lagging it feels like i'm wasting A LOT of time staring at my mex waiting to be able to give the build order, but it's not long enough to justify looking away and doing something else.
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All extractors explode immediately, except the Seraphim extractor: it takes less than a second. Do you have a specific unit in mind that takes a long time to turn into a wreck?
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@jip It is the Seraphim mex that he's talking about and it is pretty annoying imo especially if the game is already lagging. It's not 2s though for sure, maybe half a second in a lag free game? Would be nice for that to be consistent between factions but it's pretty minor.
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We can make that consistent
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This change would be nice.ctrlking the mex to make it more efficiently doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and would make gameplay nicer.
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@jip I guess it must be just for sera extractors, but you also have the same kind of issue when you destroy other buildings. e.g. you ctrl k a bunch of factories adjacent to mexes and want to give a reclaim order on the wreck and then build storages around the mex.
So just generally speaking, it would be nice if all buildings in general became wrecks faster just so you can give reclaim orders and new build orders faster.
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@arma473 said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:
It just comes down to this: do we want to give people the option to do a little song and dance, to trade APM in exchange for about 600 extra mass?
This is the key question and all other considerations--faction diversity, time-to-wreck, consistency, that destroying something to rebuild it saves resources (??!?) doesn't make any sense at all--are secondary. And the least interesting part of decisionproblem.com is at the very beginning, when you're clicking a button to make more paperclips.
@ftxcommando said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:
The "counterintuitive" aspect is adding a weird rule to t3 mex upgrades.
The numbers aren't the last word on consistency, player behavior is. It doesn't pay to ctrl-k t1 mexes, shields, and radars, why should it for t2 mexes?
Everyone has seen the most recent APM graph. 80 APM is never just sitting around. Every click spent executing a construction algorithm by hand is taken away from a more interesting decision, for any player at any level.
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@analyzenoob said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:
So just generally speaking, it would be nice if all buildings in general became wrecks faster just so you can give reclaim orders and new build orders faster.
Though I agree with your statement, as it would make sense gameplaywise,
I must say, that all the tiny detail is what makes the game feel... 'alive'.If they blew up too fast, turning into wreckages almost instantly, the feeling of a factory being destroyed would feel much less vibrant.
~ Stryker
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@comradestryker Yeah I guess I don't care near as much about those things. Maybe it would be possible to have the best of both worlds, and have the wreck available as soon as the animation begins. Then you get all of the benefit of the dynamic animations, AND you can issue your commands without delay. I dunno, maybe that is impossible. If it's impossible I would just prefer immediate wrecks, because I'm never thinking "oh look at that pretty animation as the building is destroyed." I'm feeling frustrated about having to wait for it to finish because I'm playing a competitive real time strategy game...
Edit: even if there is a game limitation such that you cannot begin reclaiming until after the animation completes, perhaps it could still allow the order to be queued up? This is usually the main issue, not the 1-2 second delay in being able to construct the building...except when you are trying to build new shields in an arty war.
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And here we finally are:
Removes the death animation of Seraphim extractors so that they are destroyed in the same fashion as other extractors. In general reduces the death animation of structures so that you're not staring at death animations so long before being able to reclaim the wreck.
Will be part of the next release, see also:
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I checked out this change on FAF Develop, and the game feels considerably more responsive when it comes to wrecks.
Especially when it comes to land factories!But, I had one concern regarding death animations.
I believe others have mentioned it before, but, I was unable to find the original post or github commit to link.My concern was that T1 pgens, and T2 mass fabs still have randomized death animations that cause them damage other wrecks near them.
As an example:
UEF T1 Pgens, and Aeon T2 Mass Fabs
This goes for all T1 pgens, all T2 mass fabs of all factions.
The same does not apply for T2/3 Pgens and T3 Mass Fabs.Will this be tackled along with the change to death animations or is that a different issue being tackled elsewhere?
Regardless, nice work! Looking forward to the release!
~ Stryker
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@ComradeStryker What is the bug in question? These units have a death weapon (the explosion), wrecks should receive damage I think
