Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
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@gabitii
For me the problem is also the way you 'introduced' your opinion. You didn't say "isn't XY going to be the case?" but e.g. "Aeon t2 navy is just the weakest now". My problem with that take is simply that it shows you didn't follow any other balance discussion it seems. It's a known thing that navy has the strongest t2 navy and now even the strongest t1 navy due to all the things listed above which you didn't mention at all (e.g. t2 hover). Just looking at faction pick rates in higher ranked tourneys on navymaps is a clear indicator.
Don't get me wrong, it's totally fine to not follow all discussions or to not know every detail about the game. But then please don't try to put things as a fact. Asking rather shows you're open for changing your opinion while the way you did it doesn't.I wanna note that this is my opinion and I have no idea if others got that feeling as well though.
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@sladow-noob Well I do not have any problems of someone saying where I have been wrong, not just laughing at it. And you also introduce your opinion as a fact. "Aeon still has borh the strongest frigates and destroyers". It is where I disagree. Yes, they are stronger than any other frigate, but it is weak against t2 hover spam as well as torpedo bombers. On destros we disagree, I have understood it. But the discussion here goes mainly about t2 cybran not aeon. I don't mind having a destro with that range, but not the cybran. It is because of the stealth. It will be just so op and does not need any micro at all, you can just come a bit closer and start hitting. Even when your opponent has a good micro, it will be very tough for them to counter it. If we could consider APM as a resource if each player, than other destros would need more of it against the cybran.
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@rezy-noob why you say that aeon destros have op torps? In my opinion their torps are normal. Or did you mean depth charges? I do not consider them as op, since they can only hit underwater targets, not frigates or destros.
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Good micro? Salem is the easiest destro to micro against. It's getting the buff because at high level it's pretty well regarded as the worst destro. I'd say the recent valiant buffs probably make valiant better but you can make the case it's still worse due to the torpedo problem UEF has at t2 stage I guess.
Cybran lost their advantage at t1 navy so now against Aeon they got the worse t1, t2, and t3 stage. Getting a buff to their destro is a necessity.
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jagged should add a tier on his patreon for people who want to "have an on-stream balance discussion with jagged once a month and jagged will pretend like your ideas are good ideas"
he could make a lot of money
instead he's trying to sell people replay reviews and training lessons
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@gabitii said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
@sladow-noob Yes, they are stronger than any other frigate, but it is weak against t2 hover spam as well as torpedo bombers.
All frigates are bad against torps. Even cybran, unless they outnumber torps at least five to one. Aeon frigs are arguably the best right now against hover due to extra range, not like it matters against Cybran anyway.
It is because of the stealth. It will be just so op and does not need any micro at all, you can just come a bit closer and start hitting.
Make two factories spam T1 air scouts and the stealth is gone.
@rezy-noob why you say that aeon destros have op torps? In my opinion their torps are normal.
Aeon destro depth charges are by far the strongest of all destros, and since they ignore torp defense, they hardcounter T2 subs.
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Cybran frigs aren't bad against torps because it's not a simple mass comparison. Frigates require utterly minimal infrastructure investment while giving huge intel bonuses for your own air to compete against the enemy. Other frigates need like double the mass invested to dissuade torps compared to cyb frigs which can basically allow you to ignore torps until some legion of 25-30 exist to mass torp at once AND the air cover for said torps is also present.
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I skimmed through most comments, so I apologize if I stated something someone else already mentioned.
One concern I have is that the range of the Salem now succeeds that of the Neptune.
Now, I'm all for faction buffs to where they are needed -as long as they make sense- but the Salem now outranging a T3 Battlecruiser doesn't make sense to me.I get that the health increase was not enough to make up but was range really the only other option to change?
And it's not just T3 units. I reckon critical mass could be obtained far easier against T2 and T1 units.
Especially with stealth in the equation, as well.Wasn't the range one of the primary reasons the Summit was nerfed (very) long ago?
To make it slower and more costly to obtain critical mass in a unit with excellent range?
~ Stryker
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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well you can test the Salem Changes in FAFBeta Right now as that change is live on their now @ComradeStryker
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@mazornoob Aeon depth charges are very good I agree, but they are useful only against t2 subs. They can not hit frigates, or any other on water targets. That's why I do not consider them as op. This is actually how destros work in real life.
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@rowey I have tested salem and it is has become very powerful. I do not think that they should have more range than t3 battlecruiser.
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G-great. Now give all the replays. @gabitii
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I was curious and I was able to set up a test where a couple Salems couldn't be found with 2 t1 air facs while they were hitting UEF destros for free with a frig screen to kill scouts. Which is pure cancer. BUT that was a kind of troll set up I had, and while it could happen in game the realism there was questionable.
The Cybran destro still loses (or draws) 1v1 vs all other destros even when both start out of range and the shorter range one has to go in range. And that's with zero micro, add micro and it just gets worse.
My very perfect and infallible scientific conclusion: Salem still kinda sucks, though now there might be some niche scenarios happening slightly more often where going against it with stealth will be pure depression. Huge and important caveat there: those pure depression scenarios are still because you played worse than your opp most likely.
So yeah! I was slightly worried about that range increase but I actually kinda like it now. Still a bit worried about how the sub + torp changes will play out when playing UEF vs Cybran in conjunction with these changes, but a large amount of that is me already not really liking how UEF navy plays as a purely personal and subjective opinion.
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If you want to nerf harms then NERF the hp on Cybran ras coms. Why is it that Cybran ras coms just has 4,000 more hp than the Aeon ras com and 3,000 more hp than the UEF ras com? Cybran ras coms sitting underwater building harms, sams, and tmd and reclaiming is one of the worst aspects of navy balance. If Cybran ras coms were easier to snipe then you would see a lot fewer harms finish and it would reward players who scout and snipe expensive units. All i am asking for here is for the Cybran ras com hp to be reduced to that of Aeon or even lower.
In order for a player to fully counter harms they must
- Destroy the harm
- Destroy the unit building the harms to secure reclaim.
Again, the problem is not harms but Cybran Ras coms sitting underwater building harms, sams, and tmd and reclaiming.
You can't ground fire them with cruisers because of tmd and you can't ground fire with battleships because the ras coms will just reclaim the HARM and rebuild it. You can't torp them because they will have flak and sams on the water making your torp run= 100% mass donation.
The only way to counter is overwhelming battleship ground fires + subs and coopers to kill the ras coms. Subs, coopers, and battleships are not very efficient units in terms of dps. I could do the math but trust me when I tell you it takes so much more mass and energy to break the Cybran stall than to stall.
That is not to say Cybran should not have the harm. Cybran need harms because they don't have a hover tank and not having a hover tank basically dooms your faction to irrelevance in Setons.
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S SpikeyNoob referenced this topic on
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@accidental_aeon said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
If you want to nerf harms then NERF the hp on Cybran ras coms. Why is it that Cybran ras coms just has 4,000 more hp than the Aeon ras com and 3,000 more hp than the UEF ras com? Cybran ras coms sitting underwater building harms, sams, and tmd and reclaiming is one of the worst aspects of navy balance. If Cybran ras coms were easier to snipe then you would see a lot fewer harms finish and it would reward players who scout and snipe expensive units. All i am asking for here is for the Cybran ras com hp to be reduced to that of Aeon or even lower.
You forgot to mention that Cybran SACUs (base ones, at least) are the second cheapest at only 2,000 mass.
Just 50 more mass than Aeon.Apart from having the largest health pool, they also have the highest regen as well.
Sitting in at 25HP/S with the second highest at 20 HP/S.Though this may not be the thread to speak about that unit, I would say SACUs do play a large part in HARMS.
The Cybran Support Com being arguably one of the strongest SACUs AND one of the strongest units underwater;
This together makes building HARMS a devastating combo.Sure, T3 engineers can build these too, but since they sit on the water, they can be taken out by any factor of means.
It is far more difficult to take out a support commander located underwater - especially if it has upgrades.For 800 mass, you can double its Build Power, and for an extra 2,000 mass, you can make your SACU basically unkillable for +400 HP regen.
I agree in that HARMS themselves do need a tad bit of adjusting, but, the unit that builds them needs adjustment, too.
Granted, this would possibly be tackled with this adjustment (which was an extension of this) as posted on Github a while back.
~ Stryker
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Yes, as you pointed out the SACUs are getting adjusted and specifically the cybran one will have a lot less hp by default.
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Isn't Cybran SACU regen overrated? UEF and Sera have upgrades that give them decent regen too, and around 20k more total HP.
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if cybran sacu gets -x base hp than the nano upgrade will get +x hp so the combat sacu doesn't get affected
roughly speaking
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@comradestryker said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Wasn't the range one of the primary reasons the Summit was nerfed (very) long ago?
To make it slower and more costly to obtain critical mass in a unit with excellent range?
Took me a bit to find the balance patch log but here it is.
Salem range changes:
That said... I have some significant concerns regarding these changes made to the Salem in terms of its range.
It's unclear to me why the Salem now possesses a range that surpasses other destroyers by a factor of 15 units in range and 25 units against other factions, without any corresponding drawbacks to compensate for such an extended range.
Notably, the Salem now outranges frigates by a factor of about 50 units, as well.
We're now seeing the same thing that happened to the Summit, but with potentially more severe consequences as the Salem is a T2 unit, rather than T3.
And because of this, we can anticipate encountering this 'imbalance' more frequently and at an earlier stage of a match.
And though, I've said this before... I'll note it again.
The Salem now outranges one of its counters, the Battlecruiser, which poses a challenge.In FAF, range is a paramount statistic, and in my opinion, far outweighs the other stats - damage output and health.
While the additional 5 units of range may seem relatively minor, it essentially grants the Salem an overpowering advantage.
I mean... We're literally seeing the exact same thing with the Aeon Gun Com post.
The Salem has always stood out among the other destroyers mainly due to its notable fire rate and consistent damage output.
With a range increase, it now has the ability to engage enemies from an even greater distance .
Its effectiveness is multiplied when paired with a Stealth Boat, thus allowing players to bombard opponents from afar while basically remaining impervious to a counterplay.
On top of this, the Cybran frigate is receiving a buff via a reversion to the changes made in the previous
balance patch.
While I understand that the Cybran navy still required some adjustments, I still question whether altering the Salem's range was the sole viable option.
Carriers changes:
The vision changes implemented for carriers, although necessary, inadvertently affected the Atlantis as well.
And not in a good way.The Atlantis is already widely considered to be barely an experimental unit as is.
You construct one only for its intel capabilities.
Otherwise, it is better to use those resources for a battleship instead as they are cheaper, have more range, more damage, and more HP.With all carriers now possessing the same vision range, some form of compensation should have been given to the Atlantis - IE: a slightly larger vision radius or even an adjustment in the carrier's vision capabilities relative to its radius - yet received nothing?
Many of the players I have spoken with;
Well, we all agree that these changes are questionable.
And the reasoning behind them is... lackluster, to say the least.
~ Stryker
