A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy

FtXCommando

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FemtoZetta

Idk what you tested wikingest but Sera destros definitely lose to T2 subs in numbers. Starting at about 4 destros vs 8 subs (mass equivalent) like 3 subs survive the encounter, so it's a quite brutal loss for Sera and it just gets worse at higher numbers. Your hairsplitting just makes you seem dumb and uninformed.

wikingest

@FemtoZetta Thats exactly what I said. I would recommend to read my comments first. Sera destros used to largely win against subs, and now they are losing. So it must be broken. Or have you seen a balance change that made Sera t2 navy depend entirely from air? Was there a balance decision to make sera destros weaker than subs lately?

FemtoZetta

Not sure what kind of earlier you talk about, but Sera destros have lost to T2 subs for years.

wikingest

I dont know, when it started, but at 7 Oct 2022, all destros lost to subs in big quantitys. As I brought out
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/4951/torp-bombers-are-too-strong-vs-subs/8?_=1675259960008
After that it got fixed someday, without much talk. Might have been something about torp defences fireing in opposite direction? So I checked it, and Sera destros did just fine against subs. Probably when @MazorNoob checked also. It was kind of big thing, who would not have noticed it, all destros losing to subs? And those who did the fixing and all. I dont see much to prove here. No need to look for replays, rather how could someone not know?

And so today Sera destros lose against t2 subs in big quantitys again...

TheVVheelboy

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FtXCommando

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

I dont know, when it started, but at 7 Oct 2022, all destros lost to subs in big quantitys. As I brought out

that’s not how it ever worked, salem and exodus beat subs uef and phim destro dont.

Tagada

So a year ago subs won vs destros, then somehow they stopped winning and now they are winning again?

wikingest

@Jip Can you help us out of toxicity here? Do you know anything about changes affecting destroyers vs submarines, from 7 oct 2022 to today? Concerning all factions and maybe Seraphime faction more than others? Or maybe you know who knows about it?

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

I dont know, when it started, but at 7 Oct 2022, all destros lost to subs in big quantitys. As I brought out
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/4951/torp-bombers-are-too-strong-vs-subs/8?_=1675259960008
After that it got fixed someday, without much talk. Might have been something about torp defences fireing in opposite direction? So I checked it, and Sera destros did just fine against subs. Probably when @MazorNoob checked also. It was kind of big thing, who would not have noticed it, all destros losing to subs? And those who did the fixing and all. I dont see much to prove here. No need to look for replays, rather how could someone not know?
And so today Sera destros lose against t2 subs in big quantitys again...

Tagada

The only change I recall is improving the sera destro firing cycle in the Nov 2021.

MazorNoob

To clarify, I checked Sera destroyer behaviour just a few weeks ago. Unless a navy balance change happened in a past month, that's no proof that Sera destros used to beat sub hunters.

wikingest

@Tagada When I wrote the comment (7 Oct 2022), all destroyers lost to subs massvise, when in big quantitys. Then they stopped losing to subs a part UEF of course. And now Seraphim destroyers lose to t2 submarines in big quantitys again.

@MazorNoob "I'm pretty sure last time I tested phim destroyer versus 2 sub hunters, it killed both with 30% of its health remaining. It actually did better than Cybran destroyer, which was left at around 25%." Destroyer having 30% of health left, is a symptom of winning against subs. Today I believe it is much less.

Tagada

There were no other changes made though so this seems highly unlikely

Jip

@wikingest

History of blueprint files:

Appears to be no direct changes to support the observation. Perhaps there were changes in the projectile, but I'm not entirely sure. Could you point out a date when you think certain unit combinations were better / worse? I can checkout on a commit around that time and do a quick comparison for you

MazorNoob

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

@MazorNoob "I'm pretty sure last time I tested phim destroyer versus 2 sub hunters, it killed both with 30% of its health remaining. It actually did better than Cybran destroyer, which was left at around 25%." Destroyer having 30% of health left, is a symptom of winning against subs. Today I believe it is much less.

In larger numbers it doesn't necessarily hold since torp defense of groups of ships stacks together. Pay attention to the thread. You're free to repeat my experiment, you'll get the same result.

wikingest

@MazorNoob I was unable to get the same results as you. #19148471 Even if I spread out the subhunters, and totally mismicro, sending one in before other, Sera destro is left with 7.5% health. When subs are not mismicroed, destro has about 2% health left.

FemtoZetta

You told me to read properly but you missed out on multiple mentions that this is NOT about 1 destro vs 2 subs, it's about higher numbers, like 4 vs 8.

Zeldafanboy

In which multiple cogent human beings temporarily lose awareness of the concept of scaling

wikingest

@wikingest said in A small rework/ buff to sera t1 sub to rebalance their navy:

I just ran a fast sandbox, and it seems that they are broken again. 1 Sera destro barely wins against 2 subhunters, but in bigger groups they get wrecked by subhunters. Althought maybe less than in the past...

@FemtoZetta My first post. As you can see, it never was about only 1 destro vs 2 subs.

FemtoZetta

Well whatever then, seems this thread is a mess already anyway with like 3 different discussions at the same time.