I feel like T3 Air rush is too easy, but maybe I'm missing something

1

On a 10km 5v5 with ~35,000 reclaim, a Strat by ~10:30-12:00 is not unreasonable. Additionally, having your teammates build Flak and a few Inties negates most of the risk from said rush. I find myself wishing the rush carried more risk, possibly by taking longer to achieve. Is the ~10:30-12:00 Strat an outlier? It seems like the standard for my range (I play ~600-1400).

Simply increasing the cost & time of the T3 Headquarters upgrade specifically seems like the obvious answer, but that is a separate discussion. Is there some aspect of the ease or difficulty that I'm missing here?

2

The issue is map design that has a dedicated "air slot" that allows this.
Balancing air for allowing a player to do nothing but eco and build T3 air, while keeping T3 air balanced on maps without a dedicated air slot is an issue.

3

Play games with less players. It's an issue with the fact that other players can cover for you literally making nothing for first 10 minutes of the game which in other scenarios would outright kill you.

0

That's fair. As much as larger team games are more common, there are still plenty who prefer 2v2 & 3v3. Hmm. I know the Adaptive Script can change resources. I wonder if it's possible to create a dynamic setting for cost of a Building without making it a separate mod.

1

You can win games faster, easier, and more reliably with t2 air than t3 air in nearly all commonly played maps in current balance.

T3 air is considered OP because the meta is equivalent to land slots refusing to make any single unit until titans/harbs and then you sometimes get a guy that goes for an extra t3 mex and now you had a harb that got t1 transport dropped and killed 70% of your eco in the back.

There have been plenty of times I’ve played 2v2s where even if a dude went t3 air, if you dumped enough mass into ints and shielded game losing things (mainly t2 pgen clumps or super condensed mexes) then the air just doesn’t accomplish anything. The strat rush requires specific circumstances of everyone playing greedy with no defenses and nobody making air to actually win games itself.

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Arty drop the air player

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Like FTX said, T2 already is OP and increasing the T3 air HQ cost+time just makes it even more OP.

There are three scenarios.
No specific airspot -> If your opponent goes t3 air and fucks your team, then it's your fault by just not pressuring him aka allowing that huge investment.
Map has an airspot and air have equal rank/skill -> Air is balanced and shouldn't deal much damage
Map has an airspot and air have unequal rank/skill -> The high rank has to either crush his opponent fast enough or basically just cancer the enemy airplayer. That's totally doable in the ~11min timespan (high ranked games <10min).

Take this as an example.
#18316776
The enemy airplayer (2000 global) was stronger than my airplayer (1600-1700). Since I was the high rank and on the front spot, losing the game is 100% my fault by just playing insanely bad (which I won't deny at this point). This is a scenario where I should've either went for more spam early on to just crush my opponent faster or to rush a TML/artydrop/Corsairs to cancer the enemy airplayer.

Since t3 air rush is pretty simple overall, the timing of t3 air doesn't allow a huge gap if the ranks are different. (I'd say 200-300 rank difference is the point where it gets abuseable)

1

Any balance argument that amounts to "play better" or "play different games" is just a huge cop out. At best you are helping the reader work around an aspect of the game that they don't like, while offering no systematic solution for anyone else.

People complaining about t3 air on the forums have popped up consistently, like clockwork, since I joined in 2013. One more chorus of questionable gameplay advice and recommendations for different maps or team sizes is not going to do anything.

4

A little blast from the past: do you know why we have blackops units in the game? Because zep got so tired of people complaining about strat rushes that he decided to integrate t3maa.

It appears that it was not enough seeing as we still see these threads regularly almost 10 years later. Maybe air really is fundamentally broken. Who'd have thought?

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The point of bringing up t2 air is that nobody ever demands it gets nerfed but everyone always wants t3 air nerfed even though it’s just objectively not as strong. If the thread begins on the premise of t3 air being too powerful, it’s different than arguing all air is too powerful. Just doing a random nerf to t3 air won’t change anything because it already isn’t the best move in most circumstances.

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As someone closer to average rank, do I think T3 air is OP? Not really (if anything, it's weak vs T3 AA and MAA). Strat rush can be devastating but usually only when there is a power crush or huge imbalance in air, which generally means one team is already way behind.

One thing mid-level players often do is too much "optimised" eco. Turning this style of build into a strat rush isn't hard. The problem is largely team mates expecting not to need any inties or AA and not doing enough aggression.

There is a very big gap between inties and ASF, which doesn't make things easier (excepting Aeon).

... perhaps one of the biggest issues in FAF is that among mid-level players, eco-heavy defensive builds work just often enough that many players choose this approach too often. Then, when put on a mixed team, the lack of coordination causes the whole team to do poorly vs a coordinated but mediocre team. I'm not sure how to fix this. (Dedicated team captains? Forced voice chat?? Give up.)

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@ftxcommando said in I feel like T3 Air rush is too easy, but maybe I'm missing something:

The point of bringing up t2 air is that nobody ever demands it gets nerfed but everyone always wants t3 air nerfed even though it’s just objectively not as strong. If the thread begins on the premise of t3 air being too powerful, it’s different than arguing all air is too powerful. Just doing a random nerf to t3 air won’t change anything because it already isn’t the best move in most circumstances.

I would argue this is because there is counterplay against t2 air on low-tech stages (inty, t1 aa, flak), but the only direct counter to a strat is to have T3 air yourself.

Of course, as discussed, higher-rated players know that there are many things you can do to slow down a strat rush or to mitigate its damage. But it's not the higher-rated players that find T3 air frustrating. It's the 800-1400 rating bracket, where it frankly feels like every other game ends with a strat rush, and counterplay is limited.

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You can easily kill a strat with enough ints/t2 air if it doesnt have enough asf

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@thewheelie said in I feel like T3 Air rush is too easy, but maybe I'm missing something:

You can easily kill a strat with enough ints/t2 air if it doesnt have enough asf

Would you say first strat can pay for itself most of the time even when the opponent has enough to ints t2?

0

idk, air is literally the most boring thing about this game

queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko

1

@nooby said in I feel like T3 Air rush is too easy, but maybe I'm missing something:

The issue is map design that has a dedicated "air slot" that allows this.
Balancing air for allowing a player to do nothing but eco and build T3 air, while keeping T3 air balanced on maps without a dedicated air slot is an issue.

not really, even in 2v2/3v3 t3 air rush is a very dominant strategy, and a well handled strat that doesn't fly into a cloud of inties/bunch of aa can singlehandedly end the game if the opponents dont have their own T3 air. Of course this is less prevalent on 10km maps with a dense concentration of mexes (hilly,pyramid), where the strat has less free space to fly around in

the timing won't be 10-11min, rather 12-13, but the principle stays the same

profile picture credits to petric

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@ftxcommando said in I feel like T3 Air rush is too easy, but maybe I'm missing something:

The point of bringing up t2 air is that nobody ever demands it gets nerfed but everyone always wants t3 air nerfed even though it’s just objectively not as strong. If the thread begins on the premise of t3 air being too powerful, it’s different than arguing all air is too powerful. Just doing a random nerf to t3 air won’t change anything because it already isn’t the best move in most circumstances.

inties can catch up to t2 bombers, but not to t3 bombers. spamming ints in reaction to t2 bombers makes sense, spamming ints in reaction to t3 bombers does not

inties also trade poorly into asf, so it's also a poor solution in the long run

profile picture credits to petric

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Nobody spams enough ints to beat a t2 all in just as nobody spams enough ints to beat a t3 strat rush. In 2v2s where you spam an assload of ints through the whole game because it just makes sense, even if you’re 2-3 minutes behind on t3 air nothing comes from it because the strat barely pays off and is highly likely to fly into a swarm of ints. You need a decent 10-15 asf to properly handle an int swam without instantly dying.

The dynamic surrounding t3 air in big teamgames is strictly an issue that comes from t3 air rush meta, but on many maps the dudes doing the generic t3 rush meta can be punished at t2 stage quicker and the game can be concluded faster. You don’t need to time it so that your asf is out when the strat is 30% done in the factory.

1

I will try this. Thank you.

profile picture credits to petric