Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder

@ftxcommando said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Are 800s playing white fire by attack moving first engie and delaying initial mexes for pgen spam or are they doing generic bo and then using the reclaim to boost themselves? Really think people just psyche themselves out of playing by imagining anyone that touches ladder is some god that has refined and memorized every map and put it into a notepad doc they open on their second monitor. Barely any top players have map specific bos when they play ladder. Map gen hasn’t changed any of this.

If these low level players really had these brutal bos, they’s be climbing 400 rating by next month, but I bet that almost never happens. And if you think, for example, taking into account the white fire reclaim counts as “bo” or “map knowledge” then the same lack of map knowledge on your end will still lead to you losing map gen games; it’s just general game sense.

Maybe its true maybe its not, but I WANT TO SEE THAT THE MATCHMAKING IS FAIR and nobody can have even a tiny advantage before game starts

i agree, that’s why i am making a motion to ban anyone that has a tummy ache from playing ladder

also no sleep deprivation

@karlhoffman said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Maybe its true maybe its not, but I WANT TO SEE THAT THE MATCHMAKING IS FAIR and nobody can have even a tiny advantage before game starts

Yes the true measure of who is the better player, keep everything even with no advantage whatsoever. I'll be sure to challenge Tagada to a 1v1 now and tell him that he has to magically play at my 1400 ladder level so we can be even with no advantages. Same factions too, after a good nights rest and some food and coffee.

Knowing that you literally can't BO whore on mapgen does have the significant psychological advantage that you don't need to think about it.

It's not that BO whoring is necessary to get >1k+ but BO whoring is one of the most obvious thing to if you want to win more.
Other, often much more crucial improvements, like eco balance, unit movements, map awareness, are much harder to grasp and implement, while copying and practicing a BO for an hour is conceptually really trivial and will definitely result in you winning games.

So if you go in with a competitive mindset you either have to BO whore to some degree, or convince yourself before every game that intentionally ignoring the low hanging fruit is fine. The latter is annoying and the former takes a couple hours to do as there are like 10+ maps you would need to find and implement a BO for.

Even I, someone that definitely does enjoy the BO whoring aspect of the game, was put off by this.
I did look up BOs for one ladder month, played quite a few games that month, then the map pool changed, I would have 'needed' to do it again and so I was like "Nah too much effort" and then didn't play ladder again until literally this week.

In short: Map gen week is an amazing idea and should definitely be a regular thing! Maybe make it mapgen Sundays or something, so that we don't have to wait for an entire month between mapgen events.

@cheeseberry said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Knowing that you literally can't BO whore on mapgen does have the significant psychological advantage that you don't need to think about it.

True if you think knowing super map specific BOs will help significantly. However, this isn't the case unless you're in a high level tourney or maybe 2k+ ladder. There might be a tiny handful of maps where this is an exception, like The Ditch and Serenity Desert with its weird start, but this doesn't really impact your rating and The Ditch is only played at the highest level.

So if you go in with a competitive mindset you either have to BO whore to some degree, or convince yourself before every game that intentionally ignoring the low hanging fruit is fine. The latter is annoying and the former takes a couple hours to do as there are like 10+ maps you would need to find and implement a BO for.

You don't though. If you have the basic fundamental openings down then you will be perfectly fine. I've been slowly getting better and climbing ladder, and I have to make glaring mistakes to lose. I do this often because I am still learning and improving, but there is no way a slightly more optimal BO outside of generic ones is enough to bridge a skill gap at the 1300ish level where most of my games have been outside of maybe 5x5 maps. Even then just doing good generic stuff should work fine.

In short: Map gen week is an amazing idea and should definitely be a regular thing! Maybe make it mapgen Sundays or something, so that we don't have to wait for an entire month between mapgen events.

All that aside, I do strongly agree with this. Mapgen week has been amazing, and I've finally been able to get ladder games because it seems a lot more popular, at least for the times I can play and rating.

What is the focus on killing BO's by the way?

I personally vary between 2 and 3 similar initial BO's on all random maps and then go from there with what I think works (spoiler: often doesn't).

What I like about random maps is that it allows me to think, without needing to worry about how the map should normally be played. In addition and related I like the surprise of what I get.

@Sheikah as always I'm going to ask you things instead of doing it, but I'm still not a dev xD:

Do you think it will be possible to make a mode in the mapgen creator like the "blind" one but that resembles the same randomness of mapgen week? I mean that map dimension (5x5, 10x10 o 20x20) will be known only when the game starts? I ask this to prepare to host 1v1 games when the mapgen week will end eheh.

@exselsior

Like I said, its not that you must learn a BO for every map on ladder to be successful.

What I said is that it feels like you should learn a BO because it will have a positive impact on your gameplay and is simple to do.

Again, I myself enjoy the BO aspect of the game, but it does represent a certain time commitment I just don't want to invest to play my 5 ladder games a month.

Could I just play on static maps w/o looking at BOs at all? Of course! But I will always have the feeling in the back of my mind that I should have.

Is that dumb? Yes, but so is all of human psychology.

@loxpooig said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

@Sheikah as always I'm going to ask you things instead of doing it, but I'm still not a dev xD:

Do you think it will be possible to make a mode in the mapgen creator like the "blind" one but that resembles the same randomness of mapgen week? I mean that map dimension (5x5, 10x10 o 20x20) will be known only when the game starts? I ask this to prepare to host 1v1 games when the mapgen week will end eheh.

It is possible however you will always be able to see the map size when sitting in the custom game lobby though.

maaaaaan.. It's true .

@loxpooig We just need 20x20 maps that are mostly impassable mountains with a little 5x5 in the middle. Or a 6x6, 7x7, etc. Then you wouldn't be able to tell from the lobby how big the map is.

Potentially you could even block out a part of the map completely, like is done on Strife of Titan (technically 20x20 but actually more like 14x14) so the map would show up as 20x20 but the playable area could be much smaller

It is possible however you will always be able to see the map size when sitting in the custom game lobby though.

What about maps with internal borders though? Not that I particularly care for blind maps, but it allows more size options. 5km can have annoying issues with air and lack of build space on the edge; I imagine 8km would alleviate this while still feeling small. (I don't suppose we'll get the map-gen to do the equivalent of Cobalt Valley any time soon though.)

Personally I've enjoyed mapgen week (when I've had the chance to play). It has exposed some of my weaknesses (e.g. big open maps with lots of expansions, where T1 spam can work but travel time is significant).

@arma473 that's a good idea and what can also solve what @Cyborg16 is saying. Btw @Cyborg16 in 20x20 you have to think of nuke as tml, t3 arty as t2 arty, GC as t3 spam and so on... xD t1 tanks are almost useless

@loxpooig That is not true at all ...

@cheeseberry That's fair, I don't disagree with anything you said. I suppose where I am coming from is that I see people complaining about not knowing map specific BOs while they're suiciding tanks, overflowing a ton of power, and making units from 2 factories while upgrading mexes. Map specific BOs couldn't be further from the actual issue even though it might feel that way. Hell, I've been that person to an extent, but then I have to consciously remind myself that I didn't lose just because the other guy knew the map better.

I've come to realize that trying to memorize a good BO for every ladder map is harder and more tedious than just memorizing the basic ones + small modifiers on them and knowing when to do which one and makes you a better overall player when you know how to properly and generically manage your eco.

Of course I couldn't agree more with you saying it's human psychology and human psychology is dumb. A very fair and valid point, though I suppose it's something to overcome if you want to become a better player.

Btw @Cyborg16 in 20x20

@loxpooig I was more talking about spread-out 10k maps. 20k isn't even an option at my ladder rating.

@exselsior said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

@karlhoffman said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Maybe its true maybe its not, but I WANT TO SEE THAT THE MATCHMAKING IS FAIR and nobody can have even a tiny advantage before game starts

Yes the true measure of who is the better player, keep everything even with no advantage whatsoever. I'll be sure to challenge Tagada to a 1v1 now and tell him that he has to magically play at my 1400 ladder level so we can be even with no advantages. Same factions too, after a good nights rest and some food and coffee.

Now thats sounds fair!

I thought mapgen week was fun, but would not want to see it done for a period longer then a week. The last day or two was a little tedious. That being said, would be excited to see it kick off the first 5 days of any month.

My two cents on the whole build whoring issue: What most people below 2k ladder think build whoring is, is just the other player having decent macro and a basic opener. That will not change regardless of if you play mapgen or not. I only know builds for a small handful of maps. Palms, badlands, and loki come to mind. The rest i just improvise on the spot.

A good build should make sure that you plan to build only as much power as you need, more mex/reclaim on map means more power, so plan ahead. Engis should expand quickly, and you should have an early tank or two screen for your expanding engis. Thats all there is to it. If you are wasting power (or god forbid, mass) in the first 5 minutes, thats not the result of a bad build, but of poor macro. That will be the same on mapgen or any custom map. Its a skill that needs to be developed.

Buildwhoring would be the tagada/nexus level creations. The secret badlands build, or any other build that requires you to have planned out engi reclaim/pathing to the absolute second, giving you a clear goal of a faster transport, bomber, or getting 2 factories ahead of your opponent by minute 5 due to cutting pgens or skipping mass extractors. It would be map specific, and have 0 power overflow with mass/energy storage at ~10% for the first 5 minutes.

If its something that can be done on any map, its not build whoring, its good macro. If its something that you can plan in the first 15 seconds by pulling up the reclaim field on the map and sending an engi to the nearest rock/wreck, its just good macro. If it truly was a build order whore, the player would be up in the land of 2k.

I say all of this not to antagonize or beat anyone down, but to help people try to understand how to better improve on their end. 90% of the people i train (or used to when i had more time), their biggest issues were their macro decisions. Not micro/gameplan choices. People up to 1600-1700 still spam t1 pgens in a line with 2-3 engis for the first 10 minutes, leaving their power management decided by the gods, regardless of the map. Once you have a decent understanding of the macro in this game, then you can start to learn how to really play it. Its really hard to outsmart people when they have 2-3x the stuff that you do. Its much easier to win when you have more tanks.

@tex said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

I thought mapgen week was fun, but would not want to see it done for a period longer then a week. The last day or two was a little tedious. That being said, would be excited to see it kick off the first 5 days of any month.

Out of curiosity why did you find mapgen week tedious towards the end of it?

Wholeheartedly agree with everything else you said, was what I was trying to express but stated much better than what I said.

How have you not realised that if you want to become better than you need not onlu practice but the theoretical part as well. Like the most efficient way to get the theory part is to watch freaking replays. You cant really imprpve yourself at a somewhat decent rate without those **this is only for sub 1700 rating.