Fire beetle balance suggestion
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@MazorNoob I don't think giving fire beetles damage over time (DoT) fits thematically. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a single thing in the Cybran arsenal deals DoT. If you make a change I think it has to make sense and be consistent with the faction – e.g., giving the Fervor DoT would make thematic sense since its higher tier cousins (miasma, serenity, emissary) all deal DoT. Just my 2 cents.
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@ThomasHiatt Your argument that fire beetles are pointless or extremely niche, which is absolutely the case by design, and therefore should be removed is not a bad one, and it's one that other RTS games have taken. However, if you take this argument and apply it more broadly I think you'll find that you will end up removing a lot of units from the game. When was the last time you saw the T2 static stealth generator being built? It's probably just as rare as the fire beetle, but when you do see it, it's being built for a stealth TML base behind the air player on Setons and singlehandedly wins the game.
I think it's fine to have niche units that only fulfil a very specific purpose and only appear very rarely. It makes it all the more special when they do. If you compare this game to a standard RTS game like starcraft or a CNC game, one of the key defining features of this game is the sheer quantity of options in terms of units and strategies you have. I think if you go down the road of removing units that don't see much play or removing units because they confuse noobs, you'll get a game that's more like supcom 2.
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I fail to see how 190 mass for 1100 damage is good at all? 190 mass worth of medusas do 1150 damage in a single volley, and they are just a t1 unit that doesn't require a T2 HQ to produce. 190 mass worth of anything will probably do more than 1100 damage during its lifetime. I don't see how firebeetles are good for killing mexes either since it takes 2-3 of them to kill one t2 mex and they probably need to be dropped there with a transport. You are pretty much always better off dropping medusa to snipe stuff, even if they are the worst arty for the job, since they do more damage in just a single volley and will likely be able to fire multiple volleys.
This is all based on the current state of the firebeetle, which does very little damage, but if it were buffed to do a lot more damage then it would just be back to the old beetles that were supposedly op before I started playing FAF. I believe that anything that makes the firebeetle a better choice than TML, arty drops, corsairs, or gunships will inevitably make the firebeetle overpowered because those units are already very good.
Static stealth generators have a pretty clear role of stealthing things (it is in the name). There is nothing else in the game that provides that role. It is mostly useless due to the way fog of war and stealth work, but it is still a unique and occasionally useful ability. Firebeetles do have some roles as well, they are just so outclassed by other units that do the same role that they are pointless. I'm very skeptical that they could ever be a good choice in the Cybran arsenal while also being balanced and fun to play against.
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I don’t think anyone wants to use a beetle to snipe a t2 mex, it’s just so much fucking around for no real benefit. People will only use beetles if they’re an ACU snipe tool because that’s flashy and cool and makes your 45 year old brain receive enough dopamine to last you through the rest of the day.
Why not give the beetles a similar active ability to the new loyalists where they gain a speed boost and explode at the end of the duration/on death? You could even let their hp drain to 0 similar to a very common “overclock” function present in video games across multiple genres.
If you do that, people have a skill move to perform that relies on your ability rather than waiting on an enemy mistake, allows proper counterplay because you can make an escape rather than “you didn’t scout here so you lose,” and is actually something exciting to see? Just a thought. I personally don’t like meme mines, I think even the transport ctrlk abuse was more fun then that.
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@archsimkat Most cybran torpedoes deal damage over time. Seraphim have no DoT either and UEF only have T1 and T2 bombers, so I don't see what the big deal with "thematic consistency" is.
@ThomasHiatt DoT fixes the main issue with fire beetles, that of ACU snipes, while keeping them good against bases and buildings.
@biass Another ability nobody ever uses? Why does everyone try to fix beetles by piling on more micro gimmicks? Also, the beetles were pretty nice when a single one could kill a T2 mex - load up a deceiver, a beetle and 2 engies and you can steal 1k+ mass before enemy air deals with you.
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I would settle that they do increased dmg to buildings so that i can at least one shot t2 mexes with like two beetles or killing a pd's, something along those lines since i think it would be a fair use for such unit.
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Been saying it for 5 years and I will say it again:
1: There is no balanced state for Firebeetles to be designed around the old snipe role. It simple isn't possible, there is no combination of stats which will make them neither OP nor UP.
2: A unit's role must be intuitive as well as balanced. The only available role for Firebeetles in this game that has even a slight chance of being balanced is as a landmine. Far as I can tell, 90% of the resistance to doing this is because the game has no landmines and the FAF community reaches actual retardation levels of complete stubborn stupidity when it comes to trying new things.
3: If it is not turned into a landmine, the best option left is to remove it from the game. There is no other option for the unit's concept which doesn't lead to it being either obnoxious or unused.
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i want a Fire Beetle that infects buildings and limit the buildings' build queues to 5 and disable the repeat feature.
this would make it so meme, it would be fun to use!
it would trigger instant ctrl+k actions. ^^ -
Perhaps if a beetle targets a building, it should have a different death weapon--one that does more damage, but has much much much less area of effect. Against units it would have a broad AOE and also have an emp effect, but against buildings it would deal savage damage. And because the AOE would be smaller, I think that makes it less likely the damage would be absorbed by shields.
We could also lower the damage and increase the AOE for the anti-unit weapon. We would want the AOE to be big enough that if a transport dies carrying beetles, it would damage units on the ground. A T2 transport loaded with 10 fire beetles should be a viable weapon against T3 bots, you would just ctrl-k the transport when the beetles are overhead.
Suppose we made this change: decrease their damage to 850, increase their damage radius to 8 (from 6), and add a separate death weapon with 2 damage radius (same as TML) and 2500 damage (enough to one-shot UEF t2 economic structures). For 1830 mass you could fly a transport with 10 fire beetles over some percies and kill them. Or you could drop 10 beetles into an enemy base and kill some T3 pgens.
Or perhaps set their anti-building special attack damage lower like 1700, so it takes 2 beetles to kill any faction's eco structures, or 1800 so they can one-shot cybran eco structures but everyone else takes 2 beetles (since everyone knows we need to nerf cybran).
Also, since they would be more dangerous (with bigger AOE and with a special anti-building weapon) their HP should be lowered slightly, maybe to 270 (same as a mantis, that would also make it easy for players to understand how much firepower it takes to quickly kill 1)
They would be effective against buildings OR against massed units. They wouldn't be great at sniping ACUs (because they would use the anti-unit death weapon) but two transports full of beetles could be ctrl-Ked over an ACU to deal 17k damage. Flak should deal effectively with beetles on transports (it would kill beetles about as quickly as it kills out-of-fuel interceptors, because they would be moving at similar speeds)
It would also let people use a transport carrying 2 beetles as a way to shoot down enemy transports
It would be viable to put beetles on stingers
If they don't already, beetles should have high target priority from other units
This would dramatically increase the number of ways that you could use beetles. I have no idea if this would make them overpowered. Obviously the balance could be fine-tuned from there.
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Last time balance team reworked it I suggested to redus its damage to symbolic 100, but add EMP with decent AOE to this unit.
This way you can use Fire Beetles:
- Stun groups of enemy units or PDs when getting in close range with your army
- Save units on retreat. For example avoid enemy units to catch Hoplites
Instead of killing something with Fire Beetle you stun it and kill with something else. No sniping ACU or eco structures, only useful against units and PDs.
How do I link youtube on this forum?May as well just keep things as it is. It's more fun without Fire Beetles right?
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Maybe it could be useless but awesome. Like:
- Make the model fairly large.
- Make it extremely slow.
- Cannot be loaded on a transport.
- Huge damage in a large AOE.
- Impractically expensive. Low HP. Does friendly fire.
So pretty useless... but the ultimate lulz if you manage to use it successfully.
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@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
There is no balanced state for Firebeetles to be designed around the old snipe role. It simple isn't possible, there is no combination of stats which will make them neither OP nor UP.
You are essentially saying there is no balanced state for a one-use weapon... we really can't go there without talking about mercies.
So why do mercies work or not work when firebeetles are just "broken pls delete." ?
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@Pearl12 This is a very good point, glad you asked.
The answer is that they very nearly don't. Mercies were a hugely troublesome unit. Hugely. They were UP then OP then UP then OP, back and forth through a lot of changes. I'd argue that, even today, they aren't great. They do seem to be largely balanced, though.
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Aeon don't have a T2 Bomber. The Mercy somewhat makes up for this role in a lackluster way, but it is a nonzero influence. As has been mentioned many times, this is untrue for the Firebeetle: The Cybrans have every role filled already, they are hugely flexible, and anything you want to do with a beetle can be accomplished by another unit. This is crucial. For Mercies, there's no real alternative, so its state of balance is relative to "How good is it relative to the enemy defense?", but for beetles the question is "How good is it relative to Cybran's own alternatives?". So, if one assumes that we want all the other units to be balanced as well, and that they are easier to get the balance right because they aren't so niche, then beetles are either better than the alternatives, and therefore OP by definition, or worse, and UP by definition.
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Mercies are air units. This means that much of the counterplay is also in the air, which means the primary response in an "Oh shit, Mercies" situation is flexible and fast-moving. This makes it harder for them to be devastatingly, frustratingly OP, as long as they have negligible HP. From the defending player's point of view, there's almost always counterplay available. They can respond. There's less feelbad. This doesn't apply to beetles, because land units are so much slower and have to deal with pathfinding. If you get caught unawares there's basically nothing you can do, at all. Additionally, we can't solve this the same way as the Mercy (Give them abominable HP) because they are a land unit too! Mercies work at all because the speed allows them to get into position against a really-caught-by-surprise enemy when you play it right. This cannot work for beetles because you can't sensibly have them move that fast, so they need more HP to survive chance encounters. It's all bloody weird.
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Beetles can be loaded onto transports. Mercies can't. Back when they did a lot of damage, the real use of them was as a big-ass flying bomb. The transport grants them speed and durability. It was hugely feelbad to get caught out by, counterplay was tough. To make it require enough effort to pull off that counterplay seemed reasonable, the beetles had to be nerfed so hard they became useless.
Basically, it just doesn't work. Mercies basically don't work. Personally I'm in favour of removing both if it came to it, but Mercies have just enough differences that it kinda works. I do not believe the same is possible for beetles.
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Tell me why damage over time doesn't fix that.
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everyone has its own opinion on this 2 units.
Mercies are known in teamgame to be very luck based (maa missed or mercies was a radar signature so wasn't prioritized etc etc etc) and lead to a lot of frustration. I know there is design to have them deal dot to reduce the effectiveness for sniping ACU (while still making them useful against building ?)
For beetle i've always advocated a role against rambo ACU (which is one of the weakness of the cybran, since they don't have a proper rambo and their T2 turret are weak) but in this case it would remove one of the only weakness of the cybran. I guess all would revolved around the balancing of the unit (I guess it would depend on the micro). I had some sort of idea to combine it with personal stealth to make ambushing easier (give good damage, low aoe). Subsequently it could be used as a building sniping tool when tmd are up.
Never been a fan of the design against armies and especially the cloack. -
@MazorNoob Because a DoT figure strong enough to still be used to snipe an attentive ACU will be OP and unsatisfying to play against, while being insanely OP vs undefended buildings, and a DoT figure weak enough to NOT be usable as a snipe except in the most absolutely perfect of circumstances, but still good enough to use against buildings, will be UP and un/underused. People will simply use their normal units, as it isn't worth the APM to make and control beetles just for that.
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you know it doesn't always have to snipe, if you deal enough damage to an ACU it will force to retreat and lose time on its timing attack.
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@IceDreamer I disagree with the second part. You can give beetles enough damage to rival arty drops of other factions while taking less space on transports. They can also go under shields, used to be able to overwhelm T1 PDs, can be detonated ahead of T2 army/ACU pushes to deter them. They're also faster than regular raid units and can immediately kill high value targets like TMDs or T2 mexes.
This is still a better use for beetles than a landmine, I actually can't imagine how a landmine could be useful.
You'd have to figure out ahead of time where exactly a target of interest will go (assuming you don't give beetles a ludicrous AoE), invest economy into a unit that doesn't pay for it until the enemy stumbles upon it, risk it getting detonated by a low value unit and lose it after it blows up. If they're detectable by omni, then they're useless against ACUs and from T3 air onwards, if they're not then they become OP in tight chokepoints and are still useless anywhere else. How are T2 PDs not strictly superior? -
If you think you can make it work, go ahead. Just be aware that my calculation is that there's no place where this will actually work out to a balanced state, the unit design and surrounding faction simply doesn't allow it.
Landmines are a well-understood concept, so its easy for players to pick them up, and all your concerns are also present in every game which already has a landmine unit, and it works fine in them. They're mobile, re-placeable, they'd have moderate to large AOE, they'd be able to activate and home in on the highest value local target, they might EMP... It fills a similar role to T1 PD rather than T2, but is faster and cheaper to deploy, able to be repositioned, and is not revealed so easily to scouting missions. Being a mobile unit, it also isn't like PD in that, once scouted, buildings remain on the map even after the scout has gone.
I do not believe any other approach will come to a good place for the unit.
I do believe that a good place can be achieved if pushed hard down the landmine route.
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Landmines are a well-understood concept in other games; however, they are not in this game and I suspect there would be a lot of pushback for a new gameplay mechanic. I.E. how are landmines disabled? What keeps players from just disabling them all the time, making them effectively useless? Why learn this one gameplay mechanic for this one faction rather than just deleting the unit?
On another point, what's your objection to just increasing the damage they do? As ThomasHiatt pointed out, 190 mass for 1100 damage isn't very economical, since the equivalent mass of t1 arty does just as much damage and is not a one-shot. For a one-shot item, there should be much more damage done. We could also decrease their health (to, say, 200), making them much more like land-based mercies. Since they require radar, I think it would be pretty cool to see people sniping scouts and radar before a beetle snipe, in the same way they now snipe aa before a mercy snipe. Of course, since the ACU has omni, there would be a moment of suspense right before the kill.
@keyser said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Mercies are known in teamgame to be very luck based (maa missed or mercies was a radar signature so wasn't prioritized etc etc etc) and lead to a lot of frustration.
I disagree. There is luck in the margins the same way there is luck when your ACU has 300 health and you're trying to dodge tank shots, or when you're walking in circles to avoid a strat snipe. But by then, the strategy has already worked. There is no luck involved in scouting, putting your ACU well behind t1 AA, and winning air. In the same way there is no luck in winning land rather than complaining that you couldn't dodge the last shot of the last tank you couldn't kill, or winning air rather than complaining you couldn't walk in circles well enough because a rock got in your way.
