Make t3 navy more exciting!?!
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ftxcommando said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:
I'm just sitting here in the "I think the navy side of the game is probably the best balanced segment of the game" audience shocked that people are talking about it needing some total overhaul.
It might be relatively balanced, but it's boring af to watch and to play. You just spam the same unit and there's no real potential for plays.
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? There is potential for plays, people are just boring and unwilling to take risks which often ends up with no one committing until they feel like they have over 85% chance to win the fight. So instead of playing aggressive and microing few frigates or 1-2 destros they wait until they can force engagement that will surely go their way.
Like I never felt constricted by the navy balance, if anything I felt that I can use all the tools I have no matter how stupid the idea.
It all just came to working it out instead of smashing my head into keyboard like monkey with attack move or waiting for the perfect chance to strike like 90% of players. Just be willing to duke it out like a man and your navy game won't be nearly as boring(though get ready to get smashed too if you lose all reclaim).Hell, I loved t1 sub rush if I were to frig crush my opponent. Shit often scored me massive BP advantage, forced opponent to make their own sub/torp launcher and then after that I could go harass some mexes.
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@femtozetta said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:
You just spam the same unit and there's no real potential for plays.
Imo this is completely off the mark. Unless you're playing a map like intertemporal, you certainly don't just "spam some unit". Navy is the only domain where every unit retains some role throughout the course of the game. This is not the case for land and air, where you usually have obsolete units you never need to build again when you reach a higher tier. Naval battles are super interesting because, with the possible exception of maybe the t1 sub, no unit is obsolete, and since every unit fulfills a different niche, you need to adjust your composition based on changing situations. The possible addition of hover makes naval naval compositions and battles even more interesting. Naval battles are exciting and don't need to be reworked, especially in the way suggested so far in this thread.
Also, I really don't understand this argument for buffing t2/t3 navy just because t1 navy is more cost efficient if you just look at raw hp/dps to mass stats. I will point out, for the people advancing this argument, that t1 direct fire land has much higher dps per mass than t2 and t3 land, and inties have higher hp per mass than asf. Naive stat comparisons like this, with all context removed, just don't work, so it would be real nice if people stopped doing them.
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Its a piece of trivia Arch, last time I did the math actually the “same” decrease in efficiency across all 3 Terrain type.
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They might not become obsolete with higher tech, but you only have 3 main units overall at T3: frigate, destro, battleship. I don't think it's interesting when those 3 units are 95% of what is built (well I guess that includes cruisers too, but they are not for fighting navy). No subs feel relevant because torp bombers crush them so easily and cost effectively.
I haven't really seen it being different in high level play (on Seton's mostly).
I'l pay some more attention to it though, since I don't really have any specific data or examples on it, so maybe I'm wrong. -
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Aside from main navy units of frig destro bs
Uef has neptunes shieldboats coopers
Cybran has stealth boat t2 sub
Aeon has t2 shield t2 sub tempest
Sera has t3 shieldAnd thats not counting situational units like atlantis, t3 sub, missile cruiser
Meanwhile air balance
Asf
Now compare which list is bigger
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So Farms is saying air is boring because it has few units? Sure, more faction diversity might be interesting... well, Aeon already has swifties, mercies and restorers.
Back to navy, bias said:
Submarines are entirely boring units, they have no real solid mechanics associated with them
So make them interesting. Add a "stealth" button like the Selen and let them lurk, maybe, then try luring your opponent's ships to your subs.
But it's kind of hard to make "hide and seek" tactics work given the pace of the game, plus the way target locks work through the fog of war.
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I´ve just read all the tread.
I try to win my pound before T3 tech. IMO the sooner you win navy the sooner you gonna help mid. I dont like naval build-up for 20 min, i try to harrass everytime i can
I´ve seen people lose pound cause when they gonna place the 1st shipyard or finish the 1st or second boat and there is already enemy subs in the water (im 1000 elo btw), if i go water on seutons and i scout and find no early shipyard im 100% rushing with subs
If my rush dosent work i go heavy subs naval composition i usually go cybran or seraphin, IMO subs are kings, you can pick the sides of the enemy formation and sink 3 to 6 ships without they even noticing using T3 subs/barracudas or T2 navy with stealth boats
People say that UEF batteship is the best but Cybran Batleship can rekt them, just dont let your battleship be set still and the UEF will miss its volley.
IMO cybran and Sera are the best navys, cybran stealth is just Trololol and it feels good to pull off, the t3 Torp def are the most OP thing ever (i think it needs nerf), the t3 sera subs rek everything i use them as frontline with frigates and cruisers and few destroyers behind in case i get torp bombed, and the fact i can make the subs go to the surface to kill the torps is great and brings tears of joy to my eyes
Also i´ve noticed that Sera aircraft carrier has ground missiles, is it the only aircraft carrier that does this?
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Imo T3 Navy starts to be useful when you actually win navy, and costs an absurd amount of mass. So much that I'd rather win at T2 straight, until I get swarmed with T3 air bullshit.
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@archsimkat It would be great if T1 subs retained a role similar to T1 Frigate but underwater.
T1 subs as cheap raiding units would also be pretty cool, and T2 subs are the defensive/offensive counter because they have more anti torpedo, but that spamming T1 subs is more worth it damage wise than T2 subs, similar to frigates spam being better than getting a single T2 destroyer.
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Very cool idea
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I still think a new unit "T3 Corvette" would be better. It frees up the frigate from any relevance in T3 so it can be balanced for T1 and early T2.
The Corvettes in the meantime can be optimized to fulfill the T3 role they need to fill. Make their speed high and acceleration very high, to micro against battleships and destroyers and offcourse raid.
Also make them awesome by including faction identity:
- Aeon: Hover Corvette (slower over land)
- Cybran: Permanent stealth, "cloak pulse" (click to spend 10k stored energy to be cloaked for 20 seconds)
- UEF: Personal shield, slow acceleration, armor to reduce splash damage
- Seraphim: Zthuee++ artillery secondary weapon
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Those will never be added to the game
The best you can hope for is Seraphim getting T3 sonar.
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Corvettes are smaller than frigates
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@veteranashe said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:
Corvettes are smaller than frigates
Yes, though wikipedia says "slightly smaller" 2000 tons used to be considered the limit, but a 3000 ton class is claiming Corvette title now too, vs frigates that are 2500-7200 tons.
I don't know how often you use Aeon Shards, but their behavior and maneuverability is basically what I suggest - the size of the Corvette should be larger than the Shard, smaller than Frigates, but ultimately that decision should be dictated by being properly recognizable.
Obviously, they would be very "power dense" carrying advanced looking weapons to be credibly better than frigates. The Cybran could for example launch "Iridium rockets" similar to the Hoplite Rocket Bot. That weapon is smaller than the "Proton Cannon" used by regular ships, but it is visually credible that the "Iridium Rockets" are better and deal more effective dps. Personally I would make them homing for the Corvette and reduce the fire rate to tune the effective DPS to fit the "Advanced Weapons" look with the desired DPS.
For Aeon I think the Obilivion Cannon carried by the Specter gunship looks right, for UEF the Heavy Plasma Cannon of the Titan looks right. Seraphim as mentioned a Shie-eih Auto-Cannon like the Frigate and a Thuntho Artillery Cannon like the Zthuee because Seraphim are weird and don't follow the rules.
Secondary weapon loadout should be determined but I don't expect the balance to require them to have significant or any anti-sub or anti-air weaponry.
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I think that battleships primary purpose is less about fighting other battleships, an more about shelling shorelines, and inland bases. in that role, it's actually fantastically balanced. battleships are a extremely durable, consistently damaging, mobile artillery pieces. essentially more comparable to a t4 than a t3. changing them to being glass cannons would make them extremely swingy.... easy to sink, a massive resource investment, and the consistent damage to shields it used to do would turn into utterly overwhelming on shore firepower. I think that if your building mass battleships than something is going wrong, as that's really closer to mass t4 spam imo. t2 navy really should be your primary focus in the late game, with maybe a 1-3 battleships. if the sim speed slowing down is an issue, you might want to remember that your playing on setons. sim speed is always going to be rough on a map like setons.
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Tech level is about cost, a tech 3 Corvette that costs more than destroyers and frigates doesn't make sense especially when there isn't a t1 corvette. I think if we to add a unit a t3 frigate with all around better stats would be a better addition.
There isn't any push from the devs right now for adding units, so I would try other fixes right now than unit adding especially a unit addition would totally break navy and would have to rebalance everything.
Maybe add more range less dmg and less hp to frigates
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Without being on the balance team I can already tell you that there won't be new units. Maybe even ever. It is incredibly hard to balance a new unit, because it is impossible to forsee the role it's going to end up in (at least on a higher level). It will most definetly not turn out as you planned it to be and you have to constantly adjust the stats, to keep up with the meta changes.
now that I have time I might fiddle around a bit with the BS acceleration and speed, could be quite fun to play with low acceleration, so you would have to plan in momentum.
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I would love to see something like where ships don't stop, they keep steaming in circles or something
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