The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (The Ambassador & Blackbird)

@nex

Adding Jamming to more UEF units would be nice to increase faction diversity,

Of course! I'm glad to hear you agree with me.

but the stats should be adjusted, because just adding jamming would make those units kinda op. All Cybran units have less hp for a reason and the cybran strat even deals 250 damage less than the others (UEF strat also deals 100 damage more than others)

I didn't quite touch on it in the post, but, reverting the change made to the UEF strat from a while back could work. We could also lower the damage dealt even more and reduce HP a tad. Hope to hear more from you!

~ Stryker

@veteranashe

Jamming on the strat would mean you can see a strat coming without knowing what the radar is, I don't think this is a good idea at all and would be be very disappointed if this would make it in.

Well, this ability would be similar to that of the Cybran Strat - the ability should be off by default (when it rolls off the factory) and it can be toggled on later if the player so chooses it.

Though you are not the first to mention this. When I explained it to my peers, I also mentioned that the Broadsword has Jamming - and is easily identifiable on radar when the signatures are on. Same story here, though, again... the ability is togglable.

Irc the uef strat is armed, weakly.

It is armed, but the AA is has is comparable to that of a T1 mobile AA unit.
It can help fend off one, maybe two inties, but that's about it. It's quite useless at the T3 stage.

Jamming on the spy plane might work and be funny, but it still would get shot down the same.

You can see how it acts in-game if you check out the UEFRebalance mod created by SpikeyNoob!

Thanks for the feedback!

~ Stryker

@i_forgorthescene

So I wouldn't really mind it getting jamming for the diversity quota.

I'm glad to hear that you agree with me! It would be great to see more of these faction abilities more in the game. This is quite out of the blue, but you could probably give the Sera Spy plane a shield since the faction perk is strong shields.

As for the strat? Imo give it better DPS(preferably by giving it higher rof, B17 machine guns go Brrrrrrr) and a little bit higher AA range so that it can feel more like flying fortress when going up against t1 and t2 air. Kinda playing into the "UEF BULKY AND STRONG" meme. Which imo wouldn't make the strat too overbearing but would still make it more diverse compared to other strats.

I like that idea! I'd have to see how it would work in-game to see if it's not too strong against inties, or fighters... but it sounds quite cool!

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando

stealth has no functional impact on cyb air stats beyond making air units cost e to run the ability.

So, you don't think hiding a powerful unit is functional?

I'd argue that Stealth is absurdly strong - more than jamming or anything else, but that's a topic for a different discussion.

~ Stryker

@zeldafanboy

Not all factions have to be equally strong in all areas. They just have to be equally strong overall.

I agree - in my opinion, UEF air lacks, and Cybran air is strong.
The other 2 factions have amazing Air Experimentals too, so, that just makes UEF fall behind even more so.

Jamming would make strat bombers much better against SAMs which is one of their important counters. Since jamming is going to be buffed to reapply after you lose vision, you have to take that into account.

It would make the first volley miss, but there is a 50-50 chance. What I mean by this is that a SAM's first volley will be aimed at the first signature that comes into its radius. However, once the signature reaches direct vision, it disappears. At around this time, the Strat has likely revealed itself into vision. At this point, the missiles here take one of 2 options - they either flip out and miss, OR will re-acquire to the actual Strat damaging it.

Currently jamming sucks so I wouldn’t mind it but since it’s going to be buffed applying it to a strategic bomber, one of the most effective units in the game to rush, is dicey.

Jamming could use a rework entirely, but any small buff is welcome.
As for rushing a strat, I tested this during live games with many players, and yes, it did increase the Stat's survivability, but the strat was shot down, nonetheless. What was huge about this - in terms of coutnering it, was that if you have vision on it when it rolls off - and if you can keep vision on it, your defenses will act normally basically ignoring the Strat's fake radar blips entirely.

However, if this ability is granted, some other stats can be adjusted as well.

For the spy plane it would be ok. Maybe also the Broadsword. Probably not the ASF though

The Broadsword already has Jamming.. which is funny as people don't complain about "giving away the gunship with the obvious jamming blips".

ASF was a thought, but THAT was broken, haha.

Thanks for the feedback!

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando

Idk why you guys are acting like jamming is going to brainblast the game and destroy the balance. It’s just as useful as stealth in some situations and worse in others.

To me, Jamming isn't as strong as Stealth. Stealth is just on another level.

If you gave ASF jamming you would have to do proper play with spyplanes along with your asf group which decent players already do so you don’t miss the first turn volley. With stealth, if you don’t have spy planes you could fly into invisible ASF and your ASF fail to shoot their first volley. Conclusion: same impact.

Originally, I had thought to give ASF one fake radar blip as 5 seemed to strong, but this idea seemed to get quite bad feedback and so I just stuck with the Spy Plane and Strat.

With stealth, you can’t accurately count enemy ASF. With jamming, you can’t accurately count enemy ASF. Conclusion: same impact.

Balance!

With stealth strats, you can sneak and get suicide drops far away from enemy air that can respond. With jamming, you can tank more sams outside of omni radius (aka you can’t suicide on anything game winning most of the time). Conclusion: varying but similar utility.

Jamming is a little worse, this is especially noticeable once the main blips is scouted. It's as if jamming doesn't exist, but yeah. Good point.

Jamming on spy planes is the same deal, you might be able to get through a sam location and keep scouting. Meanwhile Cybran spy planes are harder to actively intercept. Conclusion: varying but similar utility.

Cybran Spy Planes are probably the best. Free stealth, meaning you can't see where it is at any point until it's already here.

And omni counters both. Conclusion: same impact.

Balance!

Literally incoherent for anyone here to say jamming is OP and then not actively demand Cybran lose their whole stealthed t3 stage. Only dude with a coherent point is turin saying Cybran gets more t3 air tools because of a weaker land stage but that just sounds like post hoc explanation because it isn’t like stealth ASF bring comfort to a worse land situation.

I beg to differ that Cybran has weaker land stages, as to me, all factions have quite equal strengths - for the most part.

The real reason is that nobody has any idea how to give Sera and Aeon anything cool to use so UEF won’t get their counterintel unit flavor and Cybran only has it due to inheriting it from GPG era.

Originally I had about 3 paragraphs detailing what could be added to the Seraphim Strat, but since it wasn't a UEF unit, I decided to leave it out.

In short, I suggested that it get a small shield. Enough to make it match Stealth and Jamming in its HP buffer or allow it to drop its bomb a bit sooner. Basically having range, like the T2 sonar, or having strong shields - like the faction perk.

Thanks for the post. At least someone knows that Jamming isn't as strong as people may originally think. See... this is why I mentioned in the first comment for people to test it out for themselves, haha.

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando

It already has jamming. Really great tell on how OP that jamming must be!

Funnily enough, I never hear people complain about how obvious the Jamming is on the Broadsword.
It's on by default and quite visible on radar.

~ Stryker

@nex

My point was that assuming current balance is fine, simply adding jamming would make those units stronger. So to preserve balance you would need to lower other stats a little.

As with any drastic change, you must balance it. As I said, I didn't touch on it here, but the stats could be adjusted, yes.

Adding jamming to ASF is probably a bad idea as jamming blips are sim objects (as they can be targeted). So making each ASF into 5 units might slow down the sim a bit much.

Adding Jamming to ASF was a thought, originally, but an idea that got some poor feedback. But since we're talking about it, it can be toned down. I don't see why Jamming signatures can't be random or lowered.
Anywhere from 1 to 5 signatures, 1 to 3 signatures, or just a static one extra radar signature.

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando

Under what rationale do you need to lower stats when Cybran t3 air would maintain faction parity without stealth?

Sorry for poking my nose into your convo so often, haha. But...

Well, it would be safe to assume some other changes may be needed until we get more feedback. I'm open to nerfing other stats, but I figured that it wasn't worth mentioning as Jamming is quite easy to counter.

~ Stryker

@zeldafanboy

You keep saying that jamming is always equal or worse to stealth in most scenarios— I completely agree. If you gave UEF T3 air counter intel parity with Cybran it would be roughly as good as Cybran air. Right now it’s noticeably not as good.

If you don't mind me saying, I doubt it would be nearly as strong as Cybran... again, you can see exactly where the unit(s) is and in what direction its moving in. Even with jamming, an experienced player can guestimate how many units are actually on screen.

My whole point was that if UEF T3 air was as good as Cybran it would make UEF unbalanced. It already has the best T3 naval (Neptunes are anti meta because they are good against frig spam) and the best T3 land that synergistically fills in the weakness of its siege T4 land unit. The game balance is supposed to be holistic, every faction isn’t supposed to be equally powerful in every arena at every tech level…

Hard to say but every faction has its strengths and weaknesses. But overall, I wouldn't say UEF has the best Navy. It has the most diverse options but we know that Cybran and Aeon have T2 Subs, and Sera ahs the submersible destroyer. UEF has horrendous torpedo defense on its units except for one.

Furthermore, I’m saying all this with the context of Jip saying jamming will be buffed soon. Jamming as is is a different beast entirely because it gets owned the first time vision goes over it.

The change mentioned by Jip is live on FAF Develop... but to save you some time, all it does is reactivate jamming every 15 seconds. So basically the fake radar signatures refresh on their own. An experienced player would have to manually do this every now and then - all this change does is ensure that Jamming refreshes ocasonally without the need to manually do it.

On another note, Jamming on the Strat in FAF dev doesn't change much, either. As long as the Main unit is scouted - it's as if jamming doesn't exist. AA will still target the main unit rather than the fake signatures - until the main unit is lost, again.

~ Stryker

@brannou

Good player might not be that affected y jamming but for a mid/low player that can be very impactfult. I remember a game where i didn't engaged into uef frig cause i saw over 10 of them while in reality he had like 2/3.

Well, the game has a steep learning curve. But knowing what advantages one faction has should help in countering it when facing it.

I'm tingling to shitpost about sera buff, like giving them Ras, T3 gunship and buff othuum so it become more like a percy but in better

I always found it a little unfair and/or weird that Sera doesn't get RAS coms, or why certain factions get ARAS / more economical options...

As for units, The Othumm isn't meant to go on par with the Percy - the Percy is far more expensive. The Othuum is way more similar to the Harbinger.

But these are topics for another post, haha.
Go post them if you wish, I support you!

~ Stryker

@veteranashe

Good players will see the jamming on radar so the first strat rush will be seen coming from long away, hurting the strat. It's possible you could mess with people by sending a spy plane with jamming.

Well, the ability is togglable - and it should be off by default - only turning it on when the player deems to do so.

As for Spy Plane with Jamming, well.. an experienced player would be able to identify it as for the speed of the signatures, too. So, it goes both ways.

~ Stryker

@comradestryker said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

I beg to differ that Cybran has weaker land stages, as to me, all factions have quite equal strengths - for the most part.

It certainly does.

• The ACU has very few options for combat at T2 and T3 stages compared to other factions, save for T4 stage lazer + cloak.
• Arguably the worst T2 tank. Don't have Pillar's amazing HP to mass ratio, doesn't have Ilshie's range, doesn't have Obsidian's close range DPS and tankiness. Misses half the shots depending on balance patch. Is saved somewhat by medusas being great at T2. Amphibious tank after HP nerfs is a T2 lab and useless for anything but raiding.
• Stealth is alright and deceivers + hoplites are good, but UEF and Sera have long range counters to them and Aeon have the gun, so they're not OP.
• Beetles are a meme.
• Worst DPS per mass T2 PD. Designed for fighting T1 rather than T2.
• Loyas somehow became weaker than Titans after balance changes and have a meme ability no one ever uses.
• Bricks are good, but no mobile shields to protect T3 armies from strats hurts.
• T3 mobile arty used to be OP, then deployment time rebalance happened. No mobile shields = no protection from air = dead arty.

I think Stryker thinking Cybran t2 land isn’t weak as hell just shows off how little he knows about the game. Plus your reason for the buff being “UEF doesn’t get picked as air role” is also terrible. I’ve have to yet see a game where UEF loses games because they don’t have air experimental or some extra quality.

@javi said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

I think Stryker thinking Cybran t2 land isn’t weak as hell just shows off how little he knows about the game. Plus your reason for the buff being “UEF doesn’t get picked as air role” is also terrible. I’ve have to yet see a game where UEF loses games because they don’t have air experimental or some extra quality.

It’s not about UEF losing because they have no air experimental so much as other factions winning because they have one.

Other factions can gamble on an air win, especially early on in t3 stage, and then do an all in gamble on an air t4 with minimal infrastructure which can then suicide onto the enemy in a crippling manner. UEF has no capacity to do this.

And that’s why it was dumb that UEF strat was given shittier stats than Sera strat in the last patch, that’s literally the only thing UEF has to do any sort of remotely equivalent all in gamble through air to win the game if everything else is falling apart.

If you want quick and aggressive playstyle, pick a faction that does that. If you like building sandcastles, pick UEF.

@xayo said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

If you want quick and aggressive playstyle, pick a faction that does that. If you like building sandcastles, pick UEF.

Did you get ur rating playing dual gap mid? UEF literally has the most aggressively focused t3 land stage lmao

@comradestryker said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

@ftxcommando

stealth has no functional impact on cyb air stats beyond making air units cost e to run the ability.

So, you don't think hiding a powerful unit is functional?

I'd argue that Stealth is absurdly strong - more than jamming or anything else, but that's a topic for a different discussion.

---

~ Stryker

It isn’t about it being powerful. It’s about counterintel capability not factoring into the balance of Cybran t3 air vs other faction t3 air. You remove the ability for Cybran to use stealth and they’re still equal to other factions on a statline basis. The only exception is their spy plane being strictly worse as it takes 1-2 less asf shots to kill.

I don’t even think jamming is that relevant for anything here. I don’t even consider stealth to be that big of a deal for Cybran air, including strats. It can be kind of annoying when you are macroing on a large map but it doesn’t determine game situations and the reason people love Cybran strat is the aoe not the stealth.

The relevant part of Cybran stealthed air is the ASF stealth which can allow optimal air engagements against a needlessly aggressive enemy. Likewise, this would be the only relevant part of t3 air that has jamming. Dudes that think it’s OP just haven’t had to deal with competent Cybran air play. I wish Aeon and Sera had their own counterintel aspect to put on their ASF to make spy plane management and intel a more relevant part of t3 air play. Right now it’s only really a thing against Cybran.

@FtXCommando

Once again, the game is currently balanced around the UEF having the least powerful late game air. As you say the lack of a true air experimental to leverage after winning air is a bigger factor than the effectiveness of their standard T3 air units (which are completely average).

The fact that UEF has no real air experimental is an intentional design decision just like Cybran has no mobile shield.

As for the UEF having a weaker strat bomber than the Seraphim, the Seraphim has no T3 gunship which is why their strat has a slightly more optimal aoe to damage ratio. Overall I would say that UEF and Seraphim T3 air is roughly equal, Aeon is a little better, and Cybran is the best.

The t3 gunship reason is irrational when Cybran has the best strat, an air t4, and a t3 gunship that isn’t really any different than broadsword. That reason makes no sense and it’s why next balance patch is reverting that.

The whole talk about superior air is pointless when Sera is the strongest late game air purely due to washer. Which is the whole reason them having a better strat is incoherent.

I don’t see any reason that jamming makes UEF objectively more powerful, just as stealth doesn’t make Cybran objectively more powerful. There’s more margin for misplay against Cybran which requires better play from you, but the units themselves are identical.