The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (The Ambassador & Blackbird)

@ftxcommando

Idk why you guys are acting like jamming is going to brainblast the game and destroy the balance. It’s just as useful as stealth in some situations and worse in others.

To me, Jamming isn't as strong as Stealth. Stealth is just on another level.

If you gave ASF jamming you would have to do proper play with spyplanes along with your asf group which decent players already do so you don’t miss the first turn volley. With stealth, if you don’t have spy planes you could fly into invisible ASF and your ASF fail to shoot their first volley. Conclusion: same impact.

Originally, I had thought to give ASF one fake radar blip as 5 seemed to strong, but this idea seemed to get quite bad feedback and so I just stuck with the Spy Plane and Strat.

With stealth, you can’t accurately count enemy ASF. With jamming, you can’t accurately count enemy ASF. Conclusion: same impact.

Balance!

With stealth strats, you can sneak and get suicide drops far away from enemy air that can respond. With jamming, you can tank more sams outside of omni radius (aka you can’t suicide on anything game winning most of the time). Conclusion: varying but similar utility.

Jamming is a little worse, this is especially noticeable once the main blips is scouted. It's as if jamming doesn't exist, but yeah. Good point.

Jamming on spy planes is the same deal, you might be able to get through a sam location and keep scouting. Meanwhile Cybran spy planes are harder to actively intercept. Conclusion: varying but similar utility.

Cybran Spy Planes are probably the best. Free stealth, meaning you can't see where it is at any point until it's already here.

And omni counters both. Conclusion: same impact.

Balance!

Literally incoherent for anyone here to say jamming is OP and then not actively demand Cybran lose their whole stealthed t3 stage. Only dude with a coherent point is turin saying Cybran gets more t3 air tools because of a weaker land stage but that just sounds like post hoc explanation because it isn’t like stealth ASF bring comfort to a worse land situation.

I beg to differ that Cybran has weaker land stages, as to me, all factions have quite equal strengths - for the most part.

The real reason is that nobody has any idea how to give Sera and Aeon anything cool to use so UEF won’t get their counterintel unit flavor and Cybran only has it due to inheriting it from GPG era.

Originally I had about 3 paragraphs detailing what could be added to the Seraphim Strat, but since it wasn't a UEF unit, I decided to leave it out.

In short, I suggested that it get a small shield. Enough to make it match Stealth and Jamming in its HP buffer or allow it to drop its bomb a bit sooner. Basically having range, like the T2 sonar, or having strong shields - like the faction perk.

Thanks for the post. At least someone knows that Jamming isn't as strong as people may originally think. See... this is why I mentioned in the first comment for people to test it out for themselves, haha.

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando

It already has jamming. Really great tell on how OP that jamming must be!

Funnily enough, I never hear people complain about how obvious the Jamming is on the Broadsword.
It's on by default and quite visible on radar.

~ Stryker

@nex

My point was that assuming current balance is fine, simply adding jamming would make those units stronger. So to preserve balance you would need to lower other stats a little.

As with any drastic change, you must balance it. As I said, I didn't touch on it here, but the stats could be adjusted, yes.

Adding jamming to ASF is probably a bad idea as jamming blips are sim objects (as they can be targeted). So making each ASF into 5 units might slow down the sim a bit much.

Adding Jamming to ASF was a thought, originally, but an idea that got some poor feedback. But since we're talking about it, it can be toned down. I don't see why Jamming signatures can't be random or lowered.
Anywhere from 1 to 5 signatures, 1 to 3 signatures, or just a static one extra radar signature.

~ Stryker

@ftxcommando

Under what rationale do you need to lower stats when Cybran t3 air would maintain faction parity without stealth?

Sorry for poking my nose into your convo so often, haha. But...

Well, it would be safe to assume some other changes may be needed until we get more feedback. I'm open to nerfing other stats, but I figured that it wasn't worth mentioning as Jamming is quite easy to counter.

~ Stryker

@zeldafanboy

You keep saying that jamming is always equal or worse to stealth in most scenarios— I completely agree. If you gave UEF T3 air counter intel parity with Cybran it would be roughly as good as Cybran air. Right now it’s noticeably not as good.

If you don't mind me saying, I doubt it would be nearly as strong as Cybran... again, you can see exactly where the unit(s) is and in what direction its moving in. Even with jamming, an experienced player can guestimate how many units are actually on screen.

My whole point was that if UEF T3 air was as good as Cybran it would make UEF unbalanced. It already has the best T3 naval (Neptunes are anti meta because they are good against frig spam) and the best T3 land that synergistically fills in the weakness of its siege T4 land unit. The game balance is supposed to be holistic, every faction isn’t supposed to be equally powerful in every arena at every tech level…

Hard to say but every faction has its strengths and weaknesses. But overall, I wouldn't say UEF has the best Navy. It has the most diverse options but we know that Cybran and Aeon have T2 Subs, and Sera ahs the submersible destroyer. UEF has horrendous torpedo defense on its units except for one.

Furthermore, I’m saying all this with the context of Jip saying jamming will be buffed soon. Jamming as is is a different beast entirely because it gets owned the first time vision goes over it.

The change mentioned by Jip is live on FAF Develop... but to save you some time, all it does is reactivate jamming every 15 seconds. So basically the fake radar signatures refresh on their own. An experienced player would have to manually do this every now and then - all this change does is ensure that Jamming refreshes ocasonally without the need to manually do it.

On another note, Jamming on the Strat in FAF dev doesn't change much, either. As long as the Main unit is scouted - it's as if jamming doesn't exist. AA will still target the main unit rather than the fake signatures - until the main unit is lost, again.

~ Stryker

@brannou

Good player might not be that affected y jamming but for a mid/low player that can be very impactfult. I remember a game where i didn't engaged into uef frig cause i saw over 10 of them while in reality he had like 2/3.

Well, the game has a steep learning curve. But knowing what advantages one faction has should help in countering it when facing it.

I'm tingling to shitpost about sera buff, like giving them Ras, T3 gunship and buff othuum so it become more like a percy but in better

I always found it a little unfair and/or weird that Sera doesn't get RAS coms, or why certain factions get ARAS / more economical options...

As for units, The Othumm isn't meant to go on par with the Percy - the Percy is far more expensive. The Othuum is way more similar to the Harbinger.

But these are topics for another post, haha.
Go post them if you wish, I support you!

~ Stryker

@veteranashe

Good players will see the jamming on radar so the first strat rush will be seen coming from long away, hurting the strat. It's possible you could mess with people by sending a spy plane with jamming.

Well, the ability is togglable - and it should be off by default - only turning it on when the player deems to do so.

As for Spy Plane with Jamming, well.. an experienced player would be able to identify it as for the speed of the signatures, too. So, it goes both ways.

~ Stryker

@comradestryker said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

I beg to differ that Cybran has weaker land stages, as to me, all factions have quite equal strengths - for the most part.

It certainly does.

• The ACU has very few options for combat at T2 and T3 stages compared to other factions, save for T4 stage lazer + cloak.
• Arguably the worst T2 tank. Don't have Pillar's amazing HP to mass ratio, doesn't have Ilshie's range, doesn't have Obsidian's close range DPS and tankiness. Misses half the shots depending on balance patch. Is saved somewhat by medusas being great at T2. Amphibious tank after HP nerfs is a T2 lab and useless for anything but raiding.
• Stealth is alright and deceivers + hoplites are good, but UEF and Sera have long range counters to them and Aeon have the gun, so they're not OP.
• Beetles are a meme.
• Worst DPS per mass T2 PD. Designed for fighting T1 rather than T2.
• Loyas somehow became weaker than Titans after balance changes and have a meme ability no one ever uses.
• Bricks are good, but no mobile shields to protect T3 armies from strats hurts.
• T3 mobile arty used to be OP, then deployment time rebalance happened. No mobile shields = no protection from air = dead arty.

I think Stryker thinking Cybran t2 land isn’t weak as hell just shows off how little he knows about the game. Plus your reason for the buff being “UEF doesn’t get picked as air role” is also terrible. I’ve have to yet see a game where UEF loses games because they don’t have air experimental or some extra quality.

@javi said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

I think Stryker thinking Cybran t2 land isn’t weak as hell just shows off how little he knows about the game. Plus your reason for the buff being “UEF doesn’t get picked as air role” is also terrible. I’ve have to yet see a game where UEF loses games because they don’t have air experimental or some extra quality.

It’s not about UEF losing because they have no air experimental so much as other factions winning because they have one.

Other factions can gamble on an air win, especially early on in t3 stage, and then do an all in gamble on an air t4 with minimal infrastructure which can then suicide onto the enemy in a crippling manner. UEF has no capacity to do this.

And that’s why it was dumb that UEF strat was given shittier stats than Sera strat in the last patch, that’s literally the only thing UEF has to do any sort of remotely equivalent all in gamble through air to win the game if everything else is falling apart.

If you want quick and aggressive playstyle, pick a faction that does that. If you like building sandcastles, pick UEF.

@xayo said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

If you want quick and aggressive playstyle, pick a faction that does that. If you like building sandcastles, pick UEF.

Did you get ur rating playing dual gap mid? UEF literally has the most aggressively focused t3 land stage lmao

@comradestryker said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

@ftxcommando

stealth has no functional impact on cyb air stats beyond making air units cost e to run the ability.

So, you don't think hiding a powerful unit is functional?

I'd argue that Stealth is absurdly strong - more than jamming or anything else, but that's a topic for a different discussion.

---

~ Stryker

It isn’t about it being powerful. It’s about counterintel capability not factoring into the balance of Cybran t3 air vs other faction t3 air. You remove the ability for Cybran to use stealth and they’re still equal to other factions on a statline basis. The only exception is their spy plane being strictly worse as it takes 1-2 less asf shots to kill.

I don’t even think jamming is that relevant for anything here. I don’t even consider stealth to be that big of a deal for Cybran air, including strats. It can be kind of annoying when you are macroing on a large map but it doesn’t determine game situations and the reason people love Cybran strat is the aoe not the stealth.

The relevant part of Cybran stealthed air is the ASF stealth which can allow optimal air engagements against a needlessly aggressive enemy. Likewise, this would be the only relevant part of t3 air that has jamming. Dudes that think it’s OP just haven’t had to deal with competent Cybran air play. I wish Aeon and Sera had their own counterintel aspect to put on their ASF to make spy plane management and intel a more relevant part of t3 air play. Right now it’s only really a thing against Cybran.

@FtXCommando

Once again, the game is currently balanced around the UEF having the least powerful late game air. As you say the lack of a true air experimental to leverage after winning air is a bigger factor than the effectiveness of their standard T3 air units (which are completely average).

The fact that UEF has no real air experimental is an intentional design decision just like Cybran has no mobile shield.

As for the UEF having a weaker strat bomber than the Seraphim, the Seraphim has no T3 gunship which is why their strat has a slightly more optimal aoe to damage ratio. Overall I would say that UEF and Seraphim T3 air is roughly equal, Aeon is a little better, and Cybran is the best.

The t3 gunship reason is irrational when Cybran has the best strat, an air t4, and a t3 gunship that isn’t really any different than broadsword. That reason makes no sense and it’s why next balance patch is reverting that.

The whole talk about superior air is pointless when Sera is the strongest late game air purely due to washer. Which is the whole reason them having a better strat is incoherent.

I don’t see any reason that jamming makes UEF objectively more powerful, just as stealth doesn’t make Cybran objectively more powerful. There’s more margin for misplay against Cybran which requires better play from you, but the units themselves are identical.

I think if we add this in there might be good reason to add it to other uef units to complete the theme.

@ftxcommando said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

The whole talk about superior air is pointless when Sera is the strongest late game air purely due to washer.

Maybe at the late late game, but early T3 (where T3 air is the most impactful) is far more important and the AOE and stealth of the Revenant makes it the best at killing T2 mexes by far. On many maps it can still often vet even after the mass killed requirements were increased.

On the whole the Gemini is the best ASF and the ASF dominates all other air units.

@zeldafanboy said in The Problems With The UEF - Part 4 (Ambassador & Blackbird):

@ftxcommando

My whole point was that if UEF T3 air was as good as Cybran it would make UEF unbalanced. It already has the best T3 naval (Neptunes are anti meta because they are good against frig spam) and the best T3 land that synergistically fills in the weakness of its siege T4 land unit. The game balance is supposed to be holistic, every faction isn’t supposed to be equally powerful in every arena at every tech level…

Also just wanted to quote this cuz I almost forgot about it. Nowadays UEF is definitely not the best t3 naval. UEF t3 navy is honestly quite hard countered by Aeon t3. Both exodus/shields or Omen are brutal against neptunes and Tempest is very painful for summits to properly deal with, especially since tempest kills all shieldboat protection in one volley.

That isn’t saying UEF t3 navy is trash, really every t3 navy stage is decent and has varying situations they’re solid at and it’s up to players (and maps) to make it possible to make those situations happen. Summit for example is horrible early on (slow, takes forever to shoot, easy to dodge) but is the best bs in terms of production scale combined with the shieldboat to compensate for their inability to dodge. Only tempest spam can really compare. But this is a highly specialized segment of navy combat that requires situations like sentons rather than something like Point of Reach or even Metir for navy combat where you rarely see more than 5 battleships per side. That’s where other factions are superior. When it comes to neptune, they’re fine (so long as no sub spam) but that comes at the cost of UEF t2 stage being total trash so you’re forced to rush them or slowly lose.

I also don’t see why UEF t3 land is the best for the same reasons just reversed. UEF needs to do enough damage with titans to either win the game through them or build up a snowball that then allows local advantage in the form of percy, t4, or SACUs to win. As it currently stands snipers win any sort of stagnate t3 game and therefore Aeon/Sera have the significantly easier to use “passive buildup” t3 stage. If you don’t pressure with UEF or Cybran, you’re just dead.

These are actual, healthy areas of the game where it doesn’t come down to “this faction is autowin at this stage” but instead it comes to forcing game states through play of the game. This is much healthier than something like being forced to rush neptune since players actually have an advantage to play for at that tech stage.

It’s also why I get sick of reading dudes say one faction “deserves” to autowin something (hello cybran frig) because of “holistic” balance when that’s just terrible game design. This situation of a faction “deserving” a shittier strat for “holistic” reasons is the same.

This in turn is why I would want all T3 air to have unique counterintel aspects, because you can’t make one faction “stronger” or “weaker” when they all basically have the same units barring the unique Aeon ones. If you gave ASFs counterintel you can then make some weaker or stronger forced depending on the air force size, or if not, then you at least introduce spy plane dynamics into air fights and punish lazy players that just make two blobs fight.

@comradestryker

To be fair, this could be taken either way. Seems to me that for you - there is no issue, but to me, the fact that UEF is least picked is detrimental - we want to see more races on every slot, no? Cybran's Stealth just greatly overshadows every other faction.

Looking solely at T3 air do I prefer Cybran over other factions? Yes
However, your thread/theme is "problems with the UEF". If all 3 factions are inferior at T3 air stage to Cybran, that's not a problem with the UEF, and if it was considered a problem that Cybran strat and asf are considered preferable to all other factions, the solution should be one relevant to all the other factions (rather than just giving a 'make your own thread on the other factions' type response).

I also dont understand the rationale for the problems/units focused on in the later parts of your problems with the UEF series. While I'm preempting the thread slightly, the UEF has a real difficulty with the T2 naval stage thanks to Cooper and Valiant - it has a weak destroyer, and the weakest anti-sub naval options, yet it sounds like you'll be focusing on the shield boat (a unit that is very useful in some scenarios)

@ftxcommando lol how would ahwassa or Czar make you win air and let’s not even count the bug because it is awful. Some dude invests 40k mass into an ahwassa, just invest 20k mass into ASF and you should clearly beat them. You yourself said it takes like 20 ASF to kill 1 ahwassa. Sounds very easy to kill one before it does anything with 40k worth of mass in ASF…

If you lose due to enemy having air Exp and you not having one, it’s because you didn’t invest enough into air.