SACU Rebalance

@thewheelienoob said in SACU Rebalance:

1000 mass is nothing at that point of the game so everyone would just opt for the stronger nano

The cost is entirely beside the point, it was just an example.

Alternatively, you increase the cost significantly, and to justify this, amp up the nano massively until you have 50k hp 400 regen SACUs with long range overcharge running around which is also not the best idea. That is why I addressed the insignificance of a low cost because a high cost could be too significant to the point where u have mini t4s running around lol (that would actually decimate actual t4s)

Just to stir some shit up how interested are people in custom presets?

(Is it possible? Probably, but I don't know for sure.)

@cocainediesel I would like that if it is possible.

I'll look into it. It's my understanding that the selection system treating the different presets as different unit types (for double click etc.) is desirable? Or is that just a byproduct of the implementation?

i talk with jip about this idea of custom presets but the issues it that it would require a rewithe to how the current presets are done due to they are hardcoded in the unit blueprints

@cocainediesel that would be cool actually in my opinion. If you could order it straight out of the gate the way you want.

@cocainediesel
Teleport would be an overpowered preset due to very high total adjacency discounts.

Adjustable selection priority is a feature allowed by the implementation, since I don't know of any way to adjust engine selection priority outside blueprints.

I think custom presets are not necessary if the upgrades are all made useful and the presets available become best options for a specific purpose.

Philosophically I think the whole point of a modular upgrade system is to leave identifying the best combination up to the player.

For tele just increase the cost. It'd make it more costly to install after construction, but with custom presets what's the issue? Retrofitting in the field costs more, price for flexibility etc. etc.

It would also change the balance on things like tele gc if you can have pre built tele bois due to how the math behind sacrifice works. Tele gc is a niche that happens maybe once every 500 games, but imo it’s a fun niche in chill games. Pretty sure prebuilt tele bois would be a massive buff to tele gc which I don’t think we want.

Then also rebalance sacrifice. I'm raising the subject at this time because the early stages of a major SACU rebalance is the best time to do it.

Let me figure out how feasible this is before we have another fight to the death over it though.

There needs to be some level of justification for it to make finding out if it's possible worthwhile, and we've already gotten confirmation that it'll be a pain to implement.

I'm struggling to find any benefit whatsoever to being able to do this. The only change I've ever made to an SACU after it's built is adding teleport/sacrifice/tml and those are entirely one off cases where I wouldn't want a prebuilt of those cluttering up the build menu anyway. Misclicking a tele boi would royally suck if you don't realize it asap.

If it was just a feature I could ignore, then I'd be fine with it. This is not the case; it has balance implications that both myself and Nomander have pointed out. Not only regarding costs, but one of the weakness of tele bois is that they're telegraphed far in advanced. If you see a Sera or Aeon SACU getting upgraded while scouting, you know they're making tele bois and can plan accordingly. I have won and lost games with that knowledge from scouting, and with how strong it can potentially be it should be telegraphed like it is currently.

There needs to be some level of justification for it to make finding out if it's possible worthwhile

On the contrary, sometimes I've found out if as many as six totally useless things are possible before breakfast.

@exselsior said in SACU Rebalance:

I'm struggling to find any benefit whatsoever to being able to do this. The only change I've ever made to an SACU after it's built adding teleport/sacrifice/tml

Reclaim value & veterancy are based on the initial SACU cost (i.e. they're not taking in account any upgrade added later). There are a lot of important tradeoffs there. Do I want fast veterancy for battle SACU? Or high reclaim so I can regain my mass when it dies? Etc

I'm totally fine with current presets system, but if SACU will be drastically changed it would require changes in presets to not make them broken

@sainserow said in SACU Rebalance:

Reclaim value & veterancy are based on the initial SACU cost (i.e. they're not taking in account any upgrade added later). There are a lot of important tradeoffs there. Do I want fast veterancy for battle SACU? Or high reclaim so I can regain my mass when it dies? Etc

AFAIK that was fixed some time ago and now the veterancy and reclaim should work properly for both upgraded and preset SACUs.

@tagada Good to know, but when did that happen? Can't find it in any patchnotes (re-checked last 4 years official patchnotes)

@tagada said in SACU Rebalance:

AFAIK that was fixed some time ago and now the veterancy and reclaim should work properly for both upgraded and preset SACUs.

I think this was planned, but not finished. See also #4070. Veterancy that is dispersed does take into account enhancements. But how much veterancy that is required to level up does not. And sacrifice also does not take into account enhancements.

What about https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/6040 ?

I've checked it in current game and basic seraphim SACU & battle preset gained the same 400/4000 veterancy (10% progress) after killing 1 harb. My question is why such a change wasn't explicitly mentioned in any game patchnote ? It's quite a significant change worth mentioning, it's very strange to have "hidden" patches.

@tagada said in SACU Rebalance:

What about https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/6040 ?

That just equalizes the requirements I think, you'd have to check and verify it in-game