SACU Rebalance

Karl-

@Rowey For the SACU sera ''regen field'' would it stack with the ACU regent field? How would these 2 interact?

*UEF looks good, I think moving jamming to right arm is fair

*For aeon, What was the reason of switching Ras and Rapid fabricator positions? It looks like (from my view) like nothing significant has changed with that switch

Rowey

@karl_marx the Sera regen field would stack with multiple sacus

Karl-

@rowey mother of christ

SainseRow

Many of proposed changes lack any explanantion. Out of descriptions we have some are just factually wrong.

it makes no sense to have a powerfull shield option and powerfull nano option, it's one of the 2 (like with normal acu's)

It's not like with normal ACU at all, the only normal ACU that has both nano and shield options is UEF ACU. It has those options in different slots. You can have both and it doesn't bother anyone

Why lower basic SACU stats? Now a basic SACU cannot even kill 3-4 harbs, which would make it useless until it gets all expensive battle upgrades. Which are at later stage of the game. It would be nice to see SACU as an option against early T3 spam, however these changes moving in completely opposing direction.

Why nerf aeon shield and remove sera shield? They were never OP, especially aeon one. With these stats it's impossible to absorb damage from spider even if you put more mass in SACU than a spider's cost. @rowey Additional 4k hp of nano cannot compensate losing 20k hp shield. Same with Aeon heavy shield.

Regen aura may be interesting

I would not like to get an update that makes battle SACUs worse than we have already, even now they're rare to see

Exselsior

@sainserow said in SACU Rebalance:

Why lower basic SACU stats? Now a basic SACU cannot even kill 3-4 harbs

A basic SACU is also 2100 mass vs the ~850 or whatever a harb is. So mass for mass, a base SACU probably shouldn't be able to kill even 3 harbs. Especially considering the SACU is also a t3 engineer that gives mass and energy.

Chenbro101

If the base stats go down, lower the cost too. You can add that cost to the RAS upgrade. That way RAS SACU's cost the same but come with the nerfed stats and combat SACU's become easier to get.

As for new allocation on Cybran SACU, I think RAS should be on BACK and AA on same arm as stun gun.

SainseRow

@exselsior Sorry for miscommunication. 3 habs do kill 1 SACU even now (i've picked aeon for the test). Currently sacu have 15k hp and 300 dps. If we drop it to 11.5k and 100 dps, 1 harb will kill 1 sacu! 11500 hp / 320 dps = 35 secs for harb to kill sacu while SACU would need 46 secs to kill 1 harb. And that's not even mentioning range reduction, which will allow harbs to outrange sacu completely.

1 harb will kill 1 sacu, not even brick or persie.

As for mass efficiency in general, don't forget the cost of quantum gates. In order to build SACU you need both T3 HQ and Quantum gates, it adds to the cost too. And SACU have high build power cost (compared to T3 support)

waffelzNoob

I don't really get the idea behind reducing base stats but increasing upgrade stats. No one even builds unupgraded sACUS and now there's even less of an incentive to do so. Overall, these are the changes to rambo presets i surmised:

UEF: 1.23x health reduction, 1.25x regen reduction, 1.25x damage increase, personal shield from 0 to 6500? not sure what this means
Aeon: damage unchanged, range is reduced 1.2x, HP (with upgrades) increased 1.07x., regen reduced. Looks like more of a nerf than a buff, unless chrono outperforms the shield significantly
Seraphim: hp pretty much unchanged, damage unchanged, regen reduced, but gets a regen field upgrade which stacks which is sick
Cybran hp unchanged, damage unchanged, regen reduced, but gets a damage area of which i really like the concept

Overall it looks like this isn't a buff to rambo sACUS. I understand this is a rework, but they will still die easily to T4s meaning they won't be very viable, except for aeon and seraphim being able to function as support units with chrono and regen field. UEF & Aeon rambo shield presets will still not be great. I like that the quantum gateway is made cheaper and I like the new upgrades they can get but I feel like they will function as support units at most and factions that can't get good support upgrades would rather not build sACUS at all (uef lol)

So I'm wondering what the idea is? Are they being reworked into support units, or kind of a T3.5 stage? If the goal is to make them support units I think UEF should be given something unique to help them fulfill that role (jamming is essentially useless, could just put 2 sparkies in ur army if u really wanted that effect)
If the goal is to make them T3.5 units then they should receive overall stat buffs to help them contend with T4s more, because as the game currently stands a T3 army performs better than a group of sACUS.

Nuggets

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

SainseRow

This post is deleted!

Zeldafanboy

100 dps is useless at that stage of the game, might as well disable the gun until it’s upgraded

Exselsior

@sainserow Gotcha, makes more sense. The stat nerf seems like a little much without also lowering the build cost and time.

Touches on the point that no one builds unupgraded SACUs as it is, so what's the point/role for them? Are they now supposed to truly never be built? I suppose I actually don't have much of an issue with that other than it makes them a potential noob trap. Even then I don't think noobs are building unupgraded SACUs anyway, so maybe not much of one.

Related, I'd also like to know the overall goal of the SACU rework and what role(s) the balance team is envisioning for them so we can have a better understanding of the reasoning behind the changes.

waffelzNoob

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

uef rambos have always had shields gooner

Nuggets

@thewheelienoob said in SACU Rebalance:

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

uef rambos have always had shields gooner

not talking about shields gooner

SainseRow

@exselsior

Touches on the point that no one builds unupgraded SACUs as it is, so what's the point/role for them? Are they now supposed to truly never be built?

I don't think so. I believe that basic SACUs should be cost-effective against T3 assault bots. Because if you have to build a whopping separate T3 building in order to build them, then they should be good against at least something.

And then later on they would lose to snipers, bricks and percies. But by that time they can be upgraded to become battle SACUs. Also in theory it works great with veterancy system. Since basic sacus without preset is calculated per their basic 2k mass cost.

@thewheelienoob Nuggets is probably talking about weird typo sh-EI-d (e-i swapped) repeated multiple times on github. if it even worth mentioning...

snoog

I like the changes tbh. I never understood why SACUs were so strong. It never made sense that they were better ACUs. I think turning them into actual SUPPORT ACUs will be a nice change and add some more depth to their usage and to late stage gameplay in general.

maudlin27

Thanks for including an overview of the changes - I've based my comments on that rather than reviewing the underlying file changes

General

I don't understand the nerf to base SACUs, they never felt strong before and their on death explosion also makes them weak to spam. From memory 1+ years ago I recall the justificaiton given to the then plans to nerf base SACUs was to nerf the combat potential of RAS SACUs, in which case why not lower the cost of base SACUs and increase the cost of RAS SACUs (so the base SACUs are roughly similar in combat potential to currently for their mass cost)?
Also disappointing that there doesn't appear to be a buff to the engi mode on SACUs which is really weak
I like the quantum gateway change as it felt inconsistent how factories are more efficient to build vs engineers due to the support factory mechanic but there was no equivalent support factory for gateways

Cybran

I don't like the introduction of a completely new mechanic not in FA, an area damage field, for Cybran. There are a few Cybran-like 'features' that could be explored if the aim is to give Cybrans 'something', e.g. stealth generator field; torpedo launcher; mini-monkeylord laser; none of which would involve a completely new mechanic and would be in keeping with faction specific features of other Cybran units

UEF

If I've understood right, the shield dome is the same as currently in stats, except for the cost of the upgrade which is less (due to not needing the personal upgrade first)? In which case I worry it becomes too powerful (although the slow speed of the SACU does make it harder to use than other mobile shields)
If the (personal) shield NewHealthMod affects the SACU health rather than the shield health then it doesn't make sense to me - I'd expect a shield upgrade to just give a shield, not to change the base unit health. I'm presuming (if this is what happens) it's because of the nerf to base SACUs, in which case either lower the cost of the base SACU to compensate, and/or increase the personal shield health

Overall I'm confused by the rationale behind these changes - my own impression is that generally SACUs are relatively weak units with only RAS SACUs seeing much use (albeit some of the other SACU presets do have some niche uses). I was hoping the SACU rework would therefore be focused on making the rarely used presets a bit more competitive overall. However given the nerf to the base SACU stats it feels like the reverse - that outside of a couple of exceptions the SACUs are being made weaker.

It would be interesting to understand the intent behind these changes - e.g. is it that SACUs are currently considered OP and the changes are aimed to stop them being too powerful? Or are the changes intended to make them more viable, in which case have I overlooked or not appreciated the impact of the changes at achieving this aim (quite possible)?

waffelzNoob

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

@thewheelienoob said in SACU Rebalance:

@nuggets said in SACU Rebalance:

Why does UEF have a Sheild?! wtf is that?!

uef rambos have always had shields gooner

not talking about shields gooner

i understand what it means now, thanks skibidi

Reckless_Charger

So no Seraphim RAS then. Any changes to base mass/energy generation rates? If quantum gateway costs go down will RAS Bois be easier (for those factions which have it)?

ovenman

Sera shield:
I like sera shield rambo as a super tank for snipers to hide behind. If an army wants to get to the snipers behind, it has to go through ~45k of hp + regen + oc. I think of it as a bootleg ion storm. Chicken is ~30k mass for ~65k hp with ion storm. Sera is 10k mass for 45k hp. It's weaker of course, but also leaves less reclaim when it dies. Sure it's pretty niche/weird, but I still liked it. It should be easy to maintain the upgrade with the current changes.

Aeon sensor:
I've been curious about a sensor upgrade. Would be cool to see how it plays out. Will it have vision like aeon sensors, or just omni like the others?