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    Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Balance Discussion
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    • Anachronism_A Offline
      Anachronism_
      last edited by

      I think it would be a good change to have the cost of a new t3 mex and the cost of a t2 mex plus a t3 mex upgrade be equal. Having high apm is already very beneficial in FAF without this added bonus. We don't need to further handicap low apm players with an additional ~700 mass penalty per t3 mex compared to their higher apm counterparts.

      pfp credit to gieb

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      • FtXCommandoF Offline
        FtXCommando
        last edited by FtXCommando

        Except that it involves floating the required mass, spending time moving engies, and finding the time to go back to mexes every 30-50 seconds. Being mad that proper planning gets you an eco advantage might as well as mean removing tree groups so people properly planning around them don't get rewarded for their "apm" as well.

        There are times where it's worth ctrl+k'ing mex, and there are times where it is not worth the additional mental overhead. If it is always worth it in your games, you're playing big teamgames where aggression is not a concern and you got like 10 mex to babysit.

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        • veteranasheV Offline
          veteranashe
          last edited by

          I thought bp was increased on t2 mexes so this was less of an advantage

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          • D Offline
            DinPalpatin
            last edited by

            ok I can see this mechanics can be one of the aspects of mastering the game (when to do or not to do ctrl+k instead upgrade)

            Still I don't like this overcomplicated technique.😧

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            • H Offline
              HollowSubmarine
              last edited by

              In my opinion it looks like a bug that become feature. Since it exists in FAF for ages and people get used to it i doubt that it will be ever changed. But it is very counterintuitive and may lead to accidental ctrl+k of something valuable like already rebuilt t3 mex or even comm. When i started to play FAF i legit had to make ui mod just to make sure i won't ctrl+k something else πŸ˜•

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              • S Offline
                snoog
                last edited by

                I was also of the assumption this hasn't really been worth doing for quite a while now.

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                • ZeldafanboyZ Offline
                  Zeldafanboy
                  last edited by

                  My only problem with this exploit is that it seems non-intuitive, and it’s not something that could be effectively conveyed in a loading screen tip

                  put the xbox units in the game pls u_u

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                  • FtXCommandoF Offline
                    FtXCommando
                    last edited by

                    Cost to build t2 mex - 900 mass
                    Cost to upgrade t1 mex to t2 mex - 900 mass

                    Cost to build t2 radar - 180 mass
                    Cost to upgrade t1 radar to t2 radar - 180 mass

                    Cost to build t3 UEF shield - 3300 mass
                    Cost to upgrade t2 shield to t3 shield - 3300 mass

                    The "counterintuitive" aspect is adding a weird rule to t3 mex upgrades. The game is perfectly consistent. The only area the game doesn't work like this is support factories.

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                    • arma473A Offline
                      arma473
                      last edited by

                      It's rare that people will upgrade a lot of radars, but it's normal to upgrade multiple support factories and mexes.

                      It's only fair to make people pay extra for the privilege of upgrading a shield in place when a certain faction can't even do that at all.

                      It just comes down to this: do we want to give people the option to do a little song and dance, to trade APM in exchange for about 600 extra mass? Or do we want to streamline the game here.

                      I'm definitely in favor of streamlining the game by equalizing the cost of upgrading in place vs. ctrl-k trick. The game is complicated enough. Making it a little simpler here is more good than bad.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                      • D Offline
                        Dorset @HollowSubmarine
                        last edited by

                        @greensubmarine said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:

                        In my opinion it looks like a bug that become feature. Since it exists in FAF for ages and people get used to it i doubt that it will be ever changed. But it is very counterintuitive and may lead to accidental ctrl+k of something valuable like already rebuilt t3 mex or even comm. When i started to play FAF i legit had to make ui mod just to make sure i won't ctrl+k something else πŸ˜•

                        I had problems accidently cntrl+k things I didn't mean to so what I do now when I use this technique (very rarely) is I just use my engies to reclaim the mex then build the t3 so there is no risk to make that mistake.

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                        • A Offline
                          ANALyzeNoob
                          last edited by

                          This is a pretty counter-intuitive game mechanic, but pretty much everyone learns about it if they are trying to get better. It's one of those "spend apm, gain a slight advantage" kind of things which i dont really love as it doesn't add anything to the game strategy-wise, but just forces higher apm to maximize your play. I don't really mind it either though, and don't think there is much of a good solution without changing game mechanics significantly. However, just reducing the upgrade cost vs the straight build cost for mexes I wouldn't mind either.

                          One thing that REALLY DOES bug me, is the time for the animation of the mex ctrl-k that you have to wait for before you can place the t3 mex order. Can we speed that up? It's only like 2 seconds or something, but then when the game is lagging it feels like i'm wasting A LOT of time staring at my mex waiting to be able to give the build order, but it's not long enough to justify looking away and doing something else.

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                          • JipJ Offline
                            Jip
                            last edited by Jip

                            All extractors explode immediately, except the Seraphim extractor: it takes less than a second. Do you have a specific unit in mind that takes a long time to turn into a wreck?

                            A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

                            E A 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • E Offline
                              Exselsior @Jip
                              last edited by

                              @jip It is the Seraphim mex that he's talking about and it is pretty annoying imo especially if the game is already lagging. It's not 2s though for sure, maybe half a second in a lag free game? Would be nice for that to be consistent between factions but it's pretty minor.

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                              • JipJ Offline
                                Jip
                                last edited by

                                We can make that consistent

                                A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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                                • T Offline
                                  TheWreck
                                  last edited by

                                  This change would be nice.ctrlking the mex to make it more efficiently doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and would make gameplay nicer.

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                                  • A Offline
                                    ANALyzeNoob @Jip
                                    last edited by

                                    @jip I guess it must be just for sera extractors, but you also have the same kind of issue when you destroy other buildings. e.g. you ctrl k a bunch of factories adjacent to mexes and want to give a reclaim order on the wreck and then build storages around the mex.

                                    So just generally speaking, it would be nice if all buildings in general became wrecks faster just so you can give reclaim orders and new build orders faster.

                                    ComradeStrykerC 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • C Offline
                                      clyf
                                      last edited by

                                      @arma473 said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:

                                      It just comes down to this: do we want to give people the option to do a little song and dance, to trade APM in exchange for about 600 extra mass?

                                      This is the key question and all other considerations--faction diversity, time-to-wreck, consistency, that destroying something to rebuild it saves resources (??!?) doesn't make any sense at all--are secondary. And the least interesting part of decisionproblem.com is at the very beginning, when you're clicking a button to make more paperclips.

                                      @ftxcommando said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:

                                      The "counterintuitive" aspect is adding a weird rule to t3 mex upgrades.

                                      The numbers aren't the last word on consistency, player behavior is. It doesn't pay to ctrl-k t1 mexes, shields, and radars, why should it for t2 mexes?

                                      Everyone has seen the most recent APM graph. 80 APM is never just sitting around. Every click spent executing a construction algorithm by hand is taken away from a more interesting decision, for any player at any level.

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                                      • ComradeStrykerC Offline
                                        ComradeStryker @ANALyzeNoob
                                        last edited by

                                        @analyzenoob said in Suggestion: remove "t2 to t3 mex rebuild" game mechanics maybe?:

                                        So just generally speaking, it would be nice if all buildings in general became wrecks faster just so you can give reclaim orders and new build orders faster.

                                        Though I agree with your statement, as it would make sense gameplaywise,
                                        I must say, that all the tiny detail is what makes the game feel... 'alive'.

                                        If they blew up too fast, turning into wreckages almost instantly, the feeling of a factory being destroyed would feel much less vibrant.


                                        ~ Stryker

                                        ( Ν‘Β° ΝœΚ– Ν‘Β°)

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                                        • A Offline
                                          ANALyzeNoob @ComradeStryker
                                          last edited by ANALyzeNoob

                                          @comradestryker Yeah I guess I don't care near as much about those things. Maybe it would be possible to have the best of both worlds, and have the wreck available as soon as the animation begins. Then you get all of the benefit of the dynamic animations, AND you can issue your commands without delay. I dunno, maybe that is impossible. If it's impossible I would just prefer immediate wrecks, because I'm never thinking "oh look at that pretty animation as the building is destroyed." I'm feeling frustrated about having to wait for it to finish because I'm playing a competitive real time strategy game...

                                          Edit: even if there is a game limitation such that you cannot begin reclaiming until after the animation completes, perhaps it could still allow the order to be queued up? This is usually the main issue, not the 1-2 second delay in being able to construct the building...except when you are trying to build new shields in an arty war.

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                                          • JipJ Offline
                                            Jip
                                            last edited by

                                            And here we finally are:

                                            • https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/5360

                                            Removes the death animation of Seraphim extractors so that they are destroyed in the same fashion as other extractors. In general reduces the death animation of structures so that you're not staring at death animations so long before being able to reclaim the wreck.

                                            Will be part of the next release, see also:

                                            • https://forum.faforever.com/topic/6422/developers-iteration-iii-of-2023

                                            A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

                                            ComradeStrykerC 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
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