Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF
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@zeldafanboy said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
Cruisers are a T2 unit, it make sense that they are less effective vs T3 air units. The real problem is T3 Aircraft carriers have pretty meh AA
Aircraft carriers are so tanky, though, that they are able to do plenty of damage to enemy air for their cost. If they had a lot more DPS, they'd be too good, even if you nerfed their HP, because people can make shield boats or floaty shields (especially in team games with tech sharing).
If aircraft carriers were bad, top players wouldn't make them and send them to the front, but they do.
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@ftxcommando said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
@penguin_ said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
- Restorers currently seem too weak vs air anyway, so that seems like a good change.
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- Janus spam can reasonably be countered mass-efficiently at the T1/T2 stage.
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- Cruisers generally seem too weak vs air given their relatively high mass cost anyway.
Torps: yes
anything else: no
- Air T4's currently seem too easy to snipe with air.
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pfp credit to gieb
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He got you there ftx
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@mach said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
@ftxcommando said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
Torps: yes
anything else: not3 gunships too, at least when in blobs
Its the exact opposite. The bigger the numbers on both sides the weaker the gunships are.
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wish i had that metyr replay with 100 restos bullying asfs blobs
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@penguin_ UnitDb Stata may not be accurate due to not being able to pull correct data
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What am I supposed to do with these pictures, make a collage?
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@FtXCommando I was also under the impression that inties trade favorably into Janus if you have at least close to the same mass invested in them, I thought Yudi told me that awhile back. Am I misremembering or just wrong there?
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@exselsior said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
@FtXCommando I was also under the impression that inties trade favorably into Janus if you have at least close to the same mass invested in them, I thought Yudi told me that awhile back. Am I misremembering or just wrong there?
The issue is that it's much cheaper to make infra for janus, you can just have 10 engis assist and t2 hq, whereas the opponent has to make 10 t1 airfacs. Then u can just switch to assisting something else once enemy has made 10 t1 airfacs.
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@penguin_ restorer stats don't account for the fact that restorers can always shoot asf regardless of their position and orientation. ASF need to turn back around after shooting once or twice
dont really care looking at anything else
Good Job, Good Luck and Good Work.
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A good option would be to make SAMs do exactly 1.8k damage (the same HP as UEF ASF). That way they are a "select and delete ASF" weapon.
It would also take 2.05 salvos to kill a Cybran strat, which decreases the effective damage against Cybran strats to an average of 1.23k per salvo due to overkill (a 32% reduction).
Would cause some weirdness against vetted ASF, and would need to look at the HP of each individual air unit, but it's a good starting point.
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Janus all in has a small infrastructure upfront cost as Blodir said. In order to beat my 100% eco devoted into janus you need to spend at least 80% of your comparable eco on ints. That is not simple to do within a 2-3 minute period, especially if you have to adjust your original game plan.
And if I beat your cloud early on you will have an incredibly hard time to stop my snowball and it becomes closer to 100% eco you need to invest to catch back up.
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@blodir said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
@exselsior said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
@FtXCommando I was also under the impression that inties trade favorably into Janus if you have at least close to the same mass invested in them, I thought Yudi told me that awhile back. Am I misremembering or just wrong there?
The issue is that it's much cheaper to make infra for janus, you can just have 10 engis assist and t2 hq, whereas the opponent has to make 10 t1 airfacs. Then u can just switch to assisting something else once enemy has made 10 t1 airfacs.
Fair but then can't you just spam inties in more or less exact same way from t2 airfacs? You can build just over 4 inties in the time it takes to build one Janus with equivalent bp if I'm not mistaken and I think you need ~3.5 inties per janus to win.
But yeah, to your point and @FtXCommando last message I do agree. There's a big difference between in theory and in practice here. I think, and I think you guys agree with this, in theory inties should win if you know from the start your opponent is going janus and they actually do that. But it doesn't work like that in practice, since you don't know for a fact they're going Janus and they can at any point choose to not go Janus, messing up your investment.
Strong agree on the snowball potential, though I think that's air in general unfortunately
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It's the same concept as swifties vs ints. Ints win in sandbox easy whether micro, no micro, half micro, whatever.
But the player that makes swifties has that period early on where he gets to dump a large mass concentration into air and the int player needs time to catch up in that mass concentration. Combine that with a speed ability to choose when and where to fight and swifties win more than they lose.
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Also it isn't as simple as simply matching the janus/swift/notha player in t2 facs. A janus is almost twice as much mass per unit of buildtime as an int is. You need almost double the facs to keep up.
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And also Janus are the same speed and act as the aggressive units so the inty player is playing permanently reactive while janny guy can sneak in some shots every now and then while losing nothing in the process. There's no amount of flak that will protect u against the terror of the skies, the janny.
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so can I go full janus as air on senton? I usually avoid that slot because ecoing for 10 minutes is boring
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@mach Not really since asf are king. Maybe if ur team uses ur janus to crush extremely hard, but in general u can't rely on that. U can't end the enemy air player with janus, all they need is 1 shield and 4 t2 mex in their core and they'll easily pump out enough asf to kill all ur janny. Mostly the janny issue is relevant in 1v1 where u don't have the space/time to go t3 air because of the upfront investment.
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Janus are mega relevant in teamgames just not on maps like sentons where there is the absolute maximum distance between the t3 air bases and because of the eco meta on sentons which means people have a lot more resources to defend.
They were good enough that quite some ppl started to complain why they weren't getting nerfed, although now that some time has passed most people have become better at countering them.
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@blodir said in Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF:
In order to satisfy moderation:
Some Sort of Ethos: I've played the game since 2013 and been one of the top rated players ever since. Yay!
Identify a Problem: SAMs disproportionally strong vs air to ground compared to ASF. SAMs make air outside of exps almost completely useless, but it's difficult to nerf them since they are already so weak vs ASF.
Showcase the Problem: Pick an abitrary teamgame of length >30min
Find a Solution: Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF
Justify the Solution: SAMs can be nerfed now and you can do more stuff with air to ground as a consequenceThe issue why Sams are OP vs Gunships and to a lesser extent Strats but suck vs ASF is that Sams have AOE and Gunships move in clustered up together tight formation, strats are less clustered but still to some extent. Even if it doesnt look tight it is a tight formation, the different between 0 AOE and 0.1 AOE is that it is going to hit others Gunships that are far from the one being hit. ASF do not have this issue to the extent Gunships and strats have because the mass density of the area affected by the AOE of the Sam does not hit as many ASF in terms of resource value. Consequently Gunships have +/-6k HP, strats +/-4k HP to make up for the splash damage despite strats costing almost 2x what Gunships cost and having less DPS than Gunships.
The only way to achieve what you want is to increase DPS on Sams and their remove AOE. At the same time you would have to change ASF HP and DPS and the same on Gunships and Strats etc.
The following quote by you is not a solution, it is a wishlist with no clear way of how to achieve it.Find a Solution: Make SAMs weaker vs gunships and strats, but stronger vs ASF
Well suffice it to say, it would require a more extensive rework of several unit settings to achieve your goal. Not impossible at all, I could certainly write up something workable that would achieve the aim but my opinion doesn't matter to the decision makers so, I guess we let them figure how whether to give Strats 5 or 6k HP and Gunships 10 or 12k HP and make Sams do 500 or 600 DPS...
