The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance

Eliminating RAS SACUs entirely makes sense. I don't get why it's an important mechanic to have in terms of lore or why it makes the game more fun to be able to have a mobile economy. (I understand why it's fun to HAVE them, having power is fun, but I don't understand why overall it makes the game more fun to play if everyone can do this.) If they must exist, I can think of a few lore-friendly ways to nerf RAS SACUs, some of which have been said above already:

• definitely you should not be able to assist a quantum gateway, no matter what. The whole point is that the gateway can pull units in from across the galaxy. An engineer's dinky little assistance beam can build things but it shouldn't be able to speed up the quantum process. That should be implemented immediately in order to bring us into conformity with the lore and with realism. Also it would be good for balance. Since this would reduce the value of a gateway, metering your ability to get units out of it, it might make sense to make the gateway itself, or even the SACUs, less expensive. (If we do this, the build time for vanilla SACUs, and different presets, should probably be identical, so we can avoid giving an incentive to make only vanilla SACUs and upgrade them after they come out.)

• similarly, quantum gateways should basically pause during a power stall, similar to how nuke launchers get extremely slow trying to load during a power stall. Maintaining a quantum connection to the other side of the universe isn't something that should be easy to do with power fluctuating on and off. If you want to get your SACUs, get your power stall under control.

• fewer hitpoints because they are fragile. A regular SACU should be able to survive two direct TML hits but maybe a RAS SACU should not. The idea of hit points is not that when you drop to 1, your last shard of armor is gone, and one more hit will kill you. the idea is that it represents how close you are to the unit ceasing function, which for a volatile unit means how close you are to the death explosion happening.

• bigger death explosion to encourage chaining, but not 10x because that would turn them into ultra fire beetles. If you drop their HP by 50%, you are already promoting chaining. Even a small boost to the size of the death explosion would further promote it.

• make them always show up on enemy vision, because the energy signature of a RAS device is just too dang obvious to hide (but ACUs, the most expensive/precious items in the galaxy, would have the tech necessary to hide a RAS signature). If we do this, operational paragons should also always show up, and perhaps quantum gateways too. You shouldn't be able to twist reality itself, or teleport units across the entire galaxy, without making a signature that would be noticed by an enemy ACU less than 75 miles away.

• eliminate the RAS preset. The idea would be: this device is so complicated/fragile that you need to assemble it after the teleport is completed. After all, ACUs can't teleport in with a RAS upgrade. Why not? That would be an instant game-winner. Aeon vs. UEF in a 1v1, UEFbro comes in with RAS and T3, Aeonbro starts with double RAS and T3. Who wins? I think I know. It's still easy enough to upgrade RAS compared to Steam (you can select multiple ACUs at once to give them all RAS upgrade, and you can queue a RAS upgrade as part of multiple orders, which you can't do in Steam). And this would still allow people to set up hive farms to speed up the process of upgrading RAS after the SACUs gate in.

I like the idea of spliting mass/energy into only one option. probably only energy.

And add higher death explosion can be interesting balance concept, not only to nerf ras sacu, but also as usable suicide tool. I remember that on Nomads we have ras sacu that was very weak ras sacu, but strong suicide bomb and it was kind of nice for use as bait.

Explosion should not be only about damage, but mostly about area effect. When it will have ACU radius then its totally different story. Thats worth to be build only as suicide squat.

I think they should just be made inefficient to the point where it's the absolute last resort. No more mass points. No more room for mass fabs and pgens. Time for RAS SCUs.

Basically remove them from the game in practical terms, but keep them around for the one scenario where they make sense.

I think that the best, easiest and most interesting solution would be to make RAS SCU's produce a symbolic amount of mass and shift their focus to energy production which would make them an expensive but mobile and easily shielded power sources. So when enemy gets a game ender or an arty and shoots at your grid you have a way to not power stall at a cost of inefficiency mass wise. I would propose something like production of 2 mass and 2.3k power making it an equivalent of t3 pgen + 2 mass fabs. You would need to ofc adjust their cost.

Making their death weapon a nuke equivalent would now make them extremely effective t4 beetles and I'm pretty sure that having almost unstoppable moving nukes that can be easily dropped by transports is the last thing the game needs.

edit: thanks @advena, yeah, let's not forget about teleport...

@deletethis said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

Making their death weapon a nuke equivalent would now make them extremely effective t4 beetles and I'm pretty sure that having almost unstoppable moving nukes that can be easily dropped by transports is the last thing the game needs.

Teleported

personal opinion? increase the cost of gate to that of a t3 land fact hq... and remove assisting on gates (maybe even remove the whole sacu preset thing) = Longer time for ras to pay itself back without any actual changes to ras stats

That will also influence combat sacus

Not an expert in any respect--what about removing RAS from SACU and putting it in a dedicated unit that can be summoned from a gateway, doesn't have any build power and is more volatile? This removes the turtling under one shield issue and turns a large cluster more into a mini mobile paragon. If it's possible I'd have the explosion of multiple scale by the number of RAS units dying.

You should just nerf ras into the ground. RAS is too good to make viable. You make it viable, you make it meta simple.

I think a game has to end somehow, ras should be hella profitable but hella risky to do as well, that is why i am advocating for increasing the dmg and radius of explosion and moving the ras in the place where teleport is so they can not tp in enemy base and go kabom. If they transport it well that is on you, since that is preventable.

-Increase the cost and increase the mass gain up to 15
-Increase dmg and radius of explosion (sufficient+ so one ras can insta kill another ras and cause chain reaction)
-Move ras in the slots where tp is so they cant have both (preventing tp kamikazi)
-Lower down BP of SACU
-RAS preset lowers the hp of SACU to like 5~10k hp (lower would be better me thinks)

And there you go the ras is solved, notice me balance plebs.

In the end, a game has to end so might as well be yolo. Also i like seeing big experimentals being built (mavor, scatus, para...).

Can someone of the balance team please elaborate on their position on ras sacus? Honestly nerf cost by factor 2 or get rid of them..

this was already answered in previous thread on ras scu

@keyser where do I find said thread?

They take 11 minutes to pay back their initial mass cost.

If you are having problems with Ras com spam you are either playing a turtle map like DG, or you're not being aggressive, and your opponent would win anyway, because you are on the backfoot and lacking any tactical intiative in that theatre.

Honestly 6500 mass for 11 income, 6500/11 = 640 seconds or roughly 11 minutes.

10 Ras sacu is the same cost as 24 strats. With 24 strats you can strat anything. For 15 Ras sacu you can make 2 Asswashers.
For 40 ras sacu you can make a paragon.

The optimal income if you are using all income on a paragon is about 400 anyway, after which you are actually delaying its completion.

@Psions said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

The optimal income if you are using all income on a paragon is about 400 anyway, after which you are actually delaying its completion.

How do you come up with that number?

@Psions said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

6500/11 = 640 seconds or roughly 11 minutes.

6500/11 = 590

On this note, I want to stress that I very much agree with the call for more moderation on this forum.

Psions please read the opening statement of this thread

I found the thead in the old forum.
So currently the approach balance team takes is to nerf their build time and reduce their bp.

This is not dealing with their fundamental problem: the combination of power and mass generation which removes the need to protect either generation in lategame, and their overall currently underpriced value proposition, they are too good for their cost (the little bp nerf doesnt cut it)

Why?

The Yudis will just make a few more hives which undos the change.

I still believe that ras is too powerful of an upgrade and should only be available once on the acu. I think i dont need to explain how powerful it is. The best static basebuilding air bos get acu ras before full t3 mex, thats how efficient it is, and thats not taking into account that its eco that doesnt need to be protected extra.

I propose for ras upgrade to be removed from sacu.

Because it will force people do spend the mass on anything else, and that will always make games more exciting than spending it on defensive ras boys. They are simply put shit for the gameplay experience. They incentivise people to play "meme as hard and still get away" style.

If thats too radical or a change, and people still want to use them, for example for lenghty coop missions as moveable base, or for increased difficulty meme style against noobs, then nerf them by increasing cost by 50%.

Another good idea raised in this thread was to make them only produce power as a choice to get safe power production. But why offer that choice? There isnt any save mass production either, except for the infamously broken ras acu.

I think protection of economy is a key principle that should stay even in lategame and ras sacus weaken that principle in ways not healthy to the game.

Also it would mean an indirect nerf to mindless hive spam which is a bonus.

@LittleBoyBennis said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

This is not dealing with their fundamental problem: the combination of power and mass generation which removes the need to protect either generation in lategame, and their overall currently underpriced value proposition, they are too good for their cost (the little bp nerf doesnt cut it)

Would introducing diminishing returns mechanic make this viable?
Say first (5) SACUs are 100%, next (1) 125%, next 150%, etc cost? The 10th SACU would be 225% more (15k mass) which would be very cost prohibitive. Lore wise, that also makes sense as it's supposedly a human in each one...

What of the Quantum gate? If SACUs are nerfed, kinda makes them useless. I saw one mod YEARS ago that turned them into Nydus Canal like structures or very rapid T3 factories... ...just saying if nerfed too much- what's the point of the QG?

Only 1100, sooo just some noob thoughts. Also...youtube vid of awesome gate mechanic