Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?

Did something change at some point in regards to the build speed for air factories? Specifically, the amount of time the factory sits idle between units when you have queued up build orders (or indeed, left it on repeat).

The amount of time it waits to start the next build seems a lot longer than it used to be? Currently, each built plane has time to get up to its max height and starts to move away before the factory starts on the next build, this seems like a huge gap in time.

I understand the logic of the unit needing to get out of the way before starting the next unit but it seems very long.

It really hurts when you're trying to pump out units fast and maybe have a lot of assisting going on but the factory is still idle more than not. It's like the factory workers are playing a game of faf between builds

I'd swear I used to be able to pump out air units pretty much continously but I don't play a lot of air - so I'm asking!

There has been a change to this, but as far as I am aware air factories were not affected.

I remember thinking that you could build air units at any speed, but when someone else mentioned a few months ago that you couldnt I checked in sandbox and realised it was effectively capped at 1 unit per second I think (e.g. air fac assisted by crazy number of hives). I assumed I'd just previously thought there was no time limit due to rarely exceeding 1/s by enough of a margin for it to be noticeable (I've also not re-tested just now and am assuming it's still possible to build them this fast).

I would have hoped/expected that with heavy eng assitance or with hives/tents i should have been able to build with no delay between units other than the built unit physically getting out of the build area? That pause when the factory should be able to build but it just ....isn't..is somewhat aggrevating!

With instabuild on air factories used to be able to produce many units per second. Someone could check if that is still the case

It is not, the delay exists, I did some test for different purpose 2 days ago. But I think it's a good thing (the delay). It kinda reinforces the idea that you should build more than 1 factory (otherwise, what is their purpose? - just a waste of mass). Not to mention you get 0 adjacency bonus effects for the assisting units - so you could in theory get 0% bonus if your assisting BP is overwhelmingly larger than the factory's. Say with the case of a bunch of HIVES assisting a T3 Air factory - you capping it with T3 PGens is effectively useless at that point.

What worries me though, is the delay between a factory finishing it's upgrade and starting working on new units. I sometimes feel like it somehow gets stuck, and you have to wait for an extended period of time before it starts making units from the queue. And sometimes, though rarely, and I'm not 100% but pretty sure, if you queue a unit in that post-upgrade blackout, the unit gets immediately de-queued and you have to press for it again (assuming the queue after the upgrade was empty).

@fichom said But I think it's a good thing (the delay). It kinda reinforces the idea that you should build more than 1 factory

Why do i have to build more than one factory though? Maybe I prefer to build one, stick massive build power on it and then find it a lot easier to defend than multiple. I fully appreciate everyone will have their own preference and playstyle but no one would be preventing players from building multiple factories by reducing the wait time.

Also, and this is a lesser issue, people like me with lower apm don't want 6+ air factories to be adjusting as needed, we just want to manage one.

Just use slave factories. There, problem fixed. You are literally making problem out of thin air, really.

Also, FAF made single factory builds obsolete for a reason, and no, bringing back pre engie mod balance is not an option no matter how much people will cry about it. Honestly, your reasonings are just utter bullshit and you know it.

@serpentor said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

Why do i have to build more than one factory though? Maybe I prefer to build one, stick massive build power on it and then find it a lot easier to defend than multiple.

Do you really need an answer on "why should a brainless strat not net the same outcome as a complex one requiring attention and skill". Not that you need any of those two to build a few additional factories, and have them assist the original one.

@serpentor said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

people like me with lower apm don't want 6+ air factories to be adjusting as needed, we just want to manage one.

And you can. But there's a downside of that not being as efficient. Just how you can send your army straight without having to micro it. No one is forcing you to micro it, but don't expect as good of a result if you don't.

@fichom said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

people like me with lower apm don't want 6+ air factories to be adjusting as needed, we just want to manage one.

And you can. But there's a downside of that not being as efficient. Just how you can send your army straight without having to micro it. No one is forcing you to micro it, but don't expect as good of a result if you don't.

There is literally no micro involved. Just use the slave factories and adjust the main factory Q and the rest will follow lmao.

And for those who don't know what slave factory is, it's a factory that's assisting another one. The slave factory will produce all the same stuff that's been queued in the main one. No need to adjust each and every factory, just the main one. Also it gives you ability to produce 1 off units without disrupting the main quee in the main factory. Just quee some units in the slave factory. The factory will then make them and then go back to assisting the main one.

It's that simple...

With para and 50 hives I can spit out every ~1000 ms 1 unit. It is capped at this, because throwing more BP does not change it.

The 1000ms delay feels appropriate to me, because otherwise the unit spam would look silly, comical and has probably balancing issues. Maybe a member of the balance team can have a final word on this matter.

The only "annoying" delay I encountered, is the lag delay from other players, which can result in several seconds until the fab reacts again after it has upgraded or changed its units queue.

You can have other fabs assisting your main fab; If you have no APM to manage all fabs, you can simply build stuff with your primary fab, and the assisting fabs will automatically take the same input as your main fab. However, it would be easier just to group them all and press the group hotkey. You can react faster, and it cuts out any wonkiness.

@Xiaomao Please, do not be so confrontational, just because you do not share or understand his view. Your input about the assisting-fabs was very informative, that other negative stuff does not add value.

@serpentor said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

I understand the logic of the unit needing to get out of the way before starting the next unit but it seems very long.

So, which delay do you think feels appropriate, what are your thoughts about the side effects on the whole game by changing those?

You can orient your arguments on this template, and I would be looking forward to reading it.

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/759/balance-thread-guidelines/1

The only "annoying" delay I encountered, is the lag delay from other players, which can result in several seconds until the fab reacts again after it has upgraded or changed its units queue.

I've not found out why this occurs yet . I think it is because the 'previous' factory occupies the build location, and therefore the factory waits a few seconds for it to clear. But I have no idea if that is correct

That could certainly be the cause of it - the inherent delays caused in the upgrade signaling completion followed by the destruction processes of the original.

@magge said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

The 1000ms delay feels appropriate to me, because otherwise the unit spam would look silly, comical and has probably balancing issues. Maybe a member of the balance team can have a final word on this matter.

Disclaimer: not a balancing team member. But another, I'd argue very important point is collision. If you could pump out units with 0 delay, there'd be absolute mayhem with collisions and units getting stuck on each other or on factory. I mean the unit's pathfinding is sometimes so dumb they get stuck on t1 PGens adjacent to factory if there is another unit in the same postal region - don't want to imagine the chaos of 50 T1 tanks coming into existence effectively simultaneously, in the same spot (with enough BP).

@fichom

Air units have no collision, and typically only air factories are surrounded by armies of engies. I think the delay should be removed, if you want to inefficiently crank out a fluid stream of ASF you should be able to

@fichom said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

What worries me though, is the delay between a factory finishing it's upgrade and starting working on new units. I sometimes feel like it somehow gets stuck, and you have to wait for an extended period of time before it starts making units from the queue. And sometimes, though rarely, and I'm not 100% but pretty sure, if you queue a unit in that post-upgrade blackout, the unit gets immediately de-queued and you have to press for it again (assuming the queue after the upgrade was empty).

Only with units in queue. Not when the upgrade finishes and you THEN order the first unit.

@jip said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

There has been a change to this, but as far as I am aware air factories were not affected.

I noted the delay too. Used to be able to spam a solid line of Torp Bombers from my build. Now they are spread apart way more and I am way way more mass when using the same amount of BP on the factory.

@zeldafanboy said in Delay between unit contruction for air factories..?:

typically only air factories are surrounded by armies of engies

navy

@mach

True but the engies don't surround the naval factory, they all clump up on 3 sides

So, getting back to the original point of this topic :

Am I misremembering the build rate of air factories? I would swear the build delay between each unit used to be next to non-existant whereas now it's pretty long. Can a dev check older code and see if something has been accidentally changed/affected? jcvjcvjcvjcv seems to agree that something has changed. I'm not asking for a balance change, I'm asking has an error occurred.