Why seraphim dont have RAS?
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@serpentor said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
@exselsior said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
many things said
The issue is not:
-that sera needs ras bois to be competitive
-that there are many ways to win a gameNo one is saying that:
-games can't be won other ways
-that ras bois must be builtAnd there's no need for the various strawman arguments which are not relevant to the topic here. Once more, for those who seem to be lacking in basic comprehension -
respectfully; what is the balance teams current logic (and i have no doubt they do acutally have one) on why the Sera team do not have RAS SACUS as an option. That's it.
You're quite literally saying what the balance team's logic is. If you don't need it and they aren't necessary for winning the game then all factions don't need their own flavor of it. All factions have a t1 tank because that's kinda necessary and would be crazy if say UEF didn't have the Striker and had to go t2 for a tank. There's no core requirement for factions to be balanced with all having a ras boi, so they don't. Sera has by far the best tele bois, sucks other factions don't have that.
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@ftxcommando said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
If you have more than 10 ras boys you’re playing pretty bad.
@Melanol proved it a lie with lots of class.
@ftxcommando said in What do you think about this mass-farming blueprint?:
Mass storage ringed t3 mass fabs take 267 seconds to pay off.
Mass fab 4000+ storages 2400+ part of t3 pgen 1944 mass. Total of 8344 mass for 21 mass income. 397 seconds to pay off.
@casternumerouno said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
A ras lad takes 10 minutes to pay off.
Ras Sacu cost 6500 -1296 for power generated -600build power (~2t3engis). 4604 mass for 11 mass income. 418 secondes to pay off. Almost 7 minutes.
Not considering the hp and dps that are hugely better on sacu, than on massfab. In case of enemy attack, Sacu's perform hugely better than massfabs. They are also mobile, take very little space, and are easy to protect.
@casternumerouno said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
In that time you can have a fucking paragon running.
You need 250000/600=416 mass income/sec, and not building anything else at all, so usually much more than 416, to build Paragon in 10 minutes.
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He didn't prove anything lol, do I need to get Yudi himself in these threads to tell you it's terrible or what?
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@ftxcommando said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
He didn't prove anything lol, do I need to get Yudi himself in these threads to tell you it's terrible or what?
I want that to happen to just see dudes argue with Yudi of all people about this
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The logic why sera does not have RAS SACUs is that the GPG devs decided that sera should not have them and there was never a good enough reason to change it
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@wikingest your math is ok but this is not an accurate comparison and lacks context
say you are at the point in-game where you have full t3 mex, maybe ACU RAS and your storages capped with fabs but you want even more eco before you are ready to contribute towards your team winning....
anyway you can build two t3 pgens and two t3 fabs with the double adjacency, costing 14.48k mass and generating 32 mass and 3125 energy, after discounts.
instead we can build RAS coms, but we can't just straight build them we also need to build a gateway first, so for 3 coms plus gateway, costing 22.35k, we get income of 33 mass and 3150 energy.
so for ~50% more we get the added benefit of the build power, mobility and dps of the coms, which is admittedly nice if you don't have kennels or hives, but if you are fighting any t3 army with your RAS COMS you will trade very poorly.
Sera not having sACU RAS is part of their faction identity as instead they get by far the strongest combat COMS and from a balance point of view is not needed. Generally in team games you can always ask for an engie anyway.
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@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
@wikingest your math is ok but this is not an accurate comparison and lacks context
say you are at the point in-game where you have full t3 mex, maybe ACU RAS and your storages capped with fabs but you want even more eco before you are ready to contribute towards your team winning....
anyway you can build two t3 pgens and two t3 fabs with the double adjacency, costing 14.48k mass and generating 32 mass and 3125 energy, after discounts.
instead we can build RAS coms, but we can't just straight build them we also need to build a gateway first, so for 3 coms plus gateway, costing 22.35k, we get income of 33 mass and 3150 energy.
so for ~50% more we get the added benefit of the build power, mobility and dps of the coms, which is admittedly nice if you don't have kennels or hives, but if you are fighting any t3 army with your RAS COMS you will trade very poorly.
Sera not having sACU RAS is part of their faction identity as instead they get by far the strongest combat COMS and from a balance point of view is not needed. Generally in team games you can always ask for an engie anyway.
Your math is also incomplete because you need approx 30 or so hives to make a decent boy production facility.
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There is mods for sera Ras bois or all factions gateway.
Fixed
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@ftxcommando said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
Your math is also incomplete because you need approx 30 or so hives to make a decent boy production facility.
Interesting. 2 teams of 4 t3 engies take about 100s to build the fabs and gens, but would take 190s to build the gateway and then assisting for the coms.
If you wanted to scale harder and have space you could always build a gateway grid with t2 fabs
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Well I'll explain my understanding of why gpg balanced them like this then.
Sera's faction theme is around sieging from firebases, they have the best arty, shields, snipers, base killing units, etc. They are, in fact, the 'invasion' faction, or 'alien' faction.
Sera's mini ras on scus offsets the lack of ras while incentivising building them for general offensive purposes. You then use them to build sera's firebases or use their combat upgrades. I think they're supposed to be the focus of a late game sera t3 army where you have lots of t3 land units based around a sera scu. It's similar to how armies focus around the acu at lower tech levels, and the fact sera has an oc upgrade makes this especially obvious that they are like expendable acus at the late t3 stage. I'm not saying this is what people do, in fact, no one does or tries to use combat scus like this, but I think it's still part of the point of how they were designed. Anyway, I digress.
This hard pushes sera into an aggressive mode with their scus, with them representing and supporting sera's forward positions. They are the only faction with an aggressive faction identity, and I think it adds a lot of character to a faction made up of designated killing machines to have their scus focused around combat. It's consistent to the lore too. Think of sera scus as spartan warriors who only know war. I feel pretty bad for the designers when it seems no one realises what they were going for with the scu design or sera's design.
Why not just give them ras anyway? Sera acu has it, but scus already have mini ras. I personally don't want it, but there's enough people already saying how it's not necessary due to fabs. It's also just lazy and boring faction design.
If they did have it, I'd want them to have some energy based ras, say 5m, 1.5ke, and 10k storage. This would help sera oc scus, or they could convert the excess at a somewhat similar efficiency to the other factions.
Yeah I have nothing better to do.
TLDR: Sera is the alien faction. -
ras bois for noobs, bild t2 mass fabs
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@ftxcommando said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
Your math is also incomplete because you need approx 30 or so hives to make a decent boy production facility.
Add some more lies. Player can use engineers to assist gateway. And the amount should be in relation of economy, possibilitys, and game plan, not because someone on net ordered so.
@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
your math is ok but this is not an accurate comparison and lacks context
Context was, that a polite new player asked a totally justified question, and got avalanched by lies and toxicity. My comparisions goes to examples brought out by others. And as you are saying, that I was not accurate in those comparaisons, show me where was the mistake I supposedly made.
If you think those examples were bad, then tell that to people who invented stuff like that.
@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
we also need to build a gateway first
Gateway cost 3000 mass and gives 120 buildpower, same as 4 t3 engineers, with mass cost 1248. In the same time gateway has 10000hp, while t3 engi (cyb) has 740. Even if you ignore totally the hp, it is only 1754 extra mass. If you divide it by, let's say 50 ras sacus expected to be built, it is extra cost of 35 mass by sacu.
You need about the same amount of build power to build massstorage ringed t3 massfab, as for sacu, but you lose lots of it, when engis are moving, so there is no economi on that side.@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
if you are fighting any t3 army with your RAS COMS you will trade very poorly
You mean mass equivalent? Never seen anyone deliberatly doing that, so I cant see why do you invent that. Who would build those for frontline combat? Where does that idea come from? Have you tried fighting t3 army with massfabs, rather than with military units and pd's?
@black_wriggler said in Why seraphim dont have RAS?:
you can build two t3 pgens and two t3 fabs with the double adjacency
Yes, this is true. You can use adjacency, more you use, more you get, and more it becomes explosive. And you can have more than double adjacency. You can cover big parts of map with this type of farm. And then if one enemy t1 arty gets through for long enough, all that explodes in chain reaction. Or bomber run. Or drop. Or enemy builds satellite. Or tac gets through. Etc.
But if you have an army of sacu's behind your base, they can counter lots of t1 arty with no loss at all. Same for other things, they can build pd's shields and more, before dying (one by one). And they can move, hide underwater etc.
Yes, adding different example with added ajacency and added explosiveness, makes it in the same time better and worse. Depends from game situation. -
Gosh, I sure am excited to start reading all this new content.
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@balanceslave
Did your parents not teach you not to litter in forum threads? Have some self-control, you are wasting the time of people who are reading what you write. -
Lol. News flash, I'm super high rated. My presence here is a great honour to the thread.
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i think ovenman is right. its hard to not compare faction unit to unit, but as the asymmetrical rts faf is we always have to look at the factions and their tactics as a whole. this not just boils down to the one or two special units or buildings but to the whole integrity of a faction.
in many cases id rather have 5 sera oc rambos than 10 ras bois.
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If economical options shouldn't be limited to certain factions...
Why not give Ras Boiis, Paragon, and ARAS to all factions?
~ Stryker
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I have a better suggestion: remove ras from all sacus and leave it only for acus, reason: the whole concept of "mobile tanky eco with guns and buildpower" never made any sense to me, they effectively become the grey goo unit that everyone should spam because it is always useful, even if the game never realistically reaches the point where they are more efficient than other stuff, why not keep them specializable combat/support units instead of 99.9% of their use being "eco, but better in literally every way"
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Why does no other faction have OC sacus??? Fix please!!! Why do aeon and cybran not have tml bois??? Fix please!!! Why can all sacus have a personal shield, but cybran cant???
Balance team, please fix.
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there is no good reason to not let have Seraphim RAS SACUs.
I saw many of those discussions, and for me it looks like people in charge just dont like the idea.
Thats all.In my opinion every faction should have the same opportunities to make more eco.
I see no reason why Seraphim is excluded from this.
