Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion

Xayo

Don't support on 2 grounds:

When I'm signing up for TMM queue, I don't want to commit to a potential 60-90min game (maybe not ingame time, but certainly wall-clock). Some of us have wives and families that also need attention, and an uninterrupted+unplanned gaming session of that length is sadly not a luxury I have anymore.
Very map-specific meta. Same argument goes for asto and dualgap. If you like a single map that much, just play it in customs. No need to have it in tmm.

Jip

@BulliedNoob It is not - but learning a highly efficient build order by heart and being able to reason about an effective build order on an arbitrary map are two entirely things. There are Youtube videos on the former, yet learning the latter requires hours and hours of playing and training.

waffelzNoob

@chisato this same issue would persist if literally any 1200 cared enough to look at a high level game on any 20km map and copy their build order: they would crush a 1200 without one

I understand complaints about game length/sim lag, but cutting out setons because some are better at it than others is just kind of sad. It's like setoners arguing that wonder open (popular 10km land map !) needs to be permanently removed because they're at a disadvantage there

besides all this im not against limiting setons to 1500+ or 1800+

waffelzNoob

@jip then learning a setons bo is a skill they put time and effort into? why should they not be rewarded? and if it's so easy, why can't everyone else just watch the youtube video?

FtXCommando

I don’t understand the game length one tbh, I’ve had hour long beetle and metir games. Sentons is just one of many high reclaim delayed late game navy/air teamgame maps.

ovenman

Do we also remove 4v4 land spam maps because some 1ks (at least one every 4v4) don't build more than 2 land factories for first 5 min? What about maps where you need your acu in mid? Some 1ks (a lot) don't do this. Should 'acu in mid' maps be removed because people don't know the 'map specific bo'?

There's some real garbage I've had to play in 4v4 que like sera glaciers, sera outpost 4v4, or bloodthrone. An unbalanced game on sentons would already be 100x better than all the games I've had on those awful maps combined, my lane is at least dynamic unlike the other maps. How can anyone of you who don't want to que for sentons want to que for these? Like I don't even want to que since it's just 30 mins down the drain.

If map size is an issue then there should be map size preference while queuing. There's so many times I don't play because I don't have 40+ mins free time so would rather play something easier to time manage.

Maomaoo

@bulliednoob said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:

@chisato this same issue would persist if literally any 1200 cared enough to look at a high level game on any 20km map and copy their build order: they would crush a 1200 without one

yeah exactly but no one has a bo for any map that isn't setons, so they don't have anyone to copy from, there's isnt a map like setons (excluding dg and astro ofc) where people play them regularly and that's precisely why saying that "t3 air rush in senton is just like t3 air rush in any other 20x20 map" argument is invalid for brackets below 1500.

FtXCommando

@chisato said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:

yeah exactly but no one has a bo for any map that isn't setons, so they don't have anyone to copy from, there's isnt a map like setons (excluding dg and astro ofc) where people play them regularly and that's precisely why saying that "t3 air rush in senton is just like t3 air rush in any other 20x20 map" argument is invalid for brackets below 1500.

Eh I disagree, there are certainly BO elements to smth like metir air. Even beyond the fact you have an extra slot that is supposed to assist with t3 air, a 1200 that knows to make 2 land facs to scale bp for power and rock reclaim will be significantly ahead of a dude just plopping down 1 fac and maybe another at the expansion mex spot like it’s sentons. A person that has played the map a few times can definitely be a t3 mex ahead by the time t3 air production starts and it only gets worse from there.

And what about beetles air? That map has zero reclaim and if your air slot gasses itself trying to help win mid with t1 air or needless ints suddenly he’s at 2 t2 mexes at min 8 and your team isn’t looking so hot.

PerciThundercock

Im only 1200 TMM noob.

Dont support. TMM is filled with eco-air domination maps. If teams are not properly balanced - this is "first strat games", this is really annoying. Give more close combat maps pls!

In my opinion - every mapgen map in pool is really brilliant, cause human-made maps is about tiny-passages, mountains and other stuff what nerf land operations.
And now you ask, should we add one more? No. = )

Robustness

let's consider this idea

Blodir

By the way, it's extremely difficult to find good TMM maps, because the TMM team can't change player distribution (spawn locations), adaptive settings or even mapgen settings. With those choices removed it gets really hard to find decent TMM maps. The old maps that we used to play back in the day like canis, hilly, pyramid, etc. are quite unpopular with high level players these days. Times have changed and people prefer maps that are:

more comparable in mex count to 1v1 (12+ per player minimum) or relatively large reclaim amount
larger than 10x10
rotationally asymmetric (as opposed to pyramid)

Seton's is one of the only maps that satisfies these constraints as well as being good looking etc. It's a bit of wishful thinking, but if there were more good custom made maps (or we could modify adaptive settings to forcibly make them better) senton (and mapgen btw) would look at lot less tempting.

Zeldafanboy

It’s not hard to find one in the custom games lobby at nearly any time, make it its own queue or don’t put it in at all

Morax

@blodir said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:

By the way, it's extremely difficult to find good TMM maps, because the TMM team can't change player distribution (spawn locations), adaptive settings or even mapgen settings.

That is in part true, but with permission from the Creative team I have blanket authority to change some maps that are no longer supported - or unresponsive - authors for the benefit of upkeep and enjoyment of the service.

If you know of a map that has less than ideal spawns which would otherwise be great for tmm please contact me and I can adjust, create a “-FAF Version”

This was granted due to the lack of refined content that works with the matchmaking queue settings and we are happy to add more content if you believe it’s a good fit.

I have done this for a few maps already and have not been asked to revert, so please make requests!

Cyborg16

@xayo said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:

When I'm signing up for TMM queue, I don't want to commit to a potential 60-90min game

This is an important point.

The difference between 1v1 and TMM is huge, but 3v3 or 4v4 wouldn't be so significant. On the other hand, the difference between TMM rush maps and TMM 20k eco maps is big.

Can we maybe have these ladders?

1v1
TMM rush maps (any team size)
TMM eco maps (teams of 3+ players)

(If people particularly want 2v2, go ahead and argue for it. It appears to be the least popular option.)

TheVVheelboy

Tbh, at this point I'm just wondering why won't all of you just go back to playing custom games if everything is just so bad.
This map bad, this map meh, not enough time, players are bad, the players are filthy tryhards. Like ffs, just remove the stupid global and make it the 4fun option. And leave TMM as the ultimate skill check where you play on a variety of good maps picked by their value as a map not for who bitched more.

Azraaa

@casternumerouno imo TMM should be only random gen B)

Morax

Well, I wanted to keep out of this thread - along with other matchmaker team members - to see what the community thinks first, but we seem to have garnered enough talking points to go ahead.

Some observations from myself:

I am actually surprised that the time/gameplay style of setons is less of a discussed point over the "skill gap." For me, the skill difference is something that exists on various style maps and is not a valid excuse to not include a map in the pool.
If there has been a huge shift in wanting map design to be what Blodir outlined (12+ mexes, lot of reclaim, asymmetric), that is news to me: please provide some info / discussions with others to back this up. I think there should be a variety of maps that have all sorts of ranges of resources / reclaim rather have rules like this. I have not seen a single person write this in the matchmaker feedback thread.
Encouraging or wanting maps that are lengthy as NOC suggests is actually the opposite of what we want: sure it teaches the late late game mechanics, but most players are not going to desire this and it is perfectly fine to reduce that event.
Many of the maps like Lena River, Adaptive Delta Riva, Lost Archipelago, etc etc tend to go VERY lengthy in game time and see late-stage tactics so to be upset about Setons having that is a bit contradicting.

Given that, I drafted the next 4v4 TMM pool to include Setons. This will be discussed with the matchmaker team to conclusion so please continue to discuss here in aid to our thoughts.

Jip

@Morax for what rating bracket?

Morax

@jip said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:

@Morax for what rating bracket?

1500+ of course! The current highest. And trust me, we are listening to feedback as Setons was going to be used for December:

We put the breaks on a bit after some debate but after reviewing think we want to see if it is more accepted this time around.

If we had some better content contribution we would have possibly opted not to consider it, but we are very, very low on maps to use and map authors willing to go to lengths to create high-level content.

BananaSmoothie

I am not in favour of Seton in TMM.
Can see the usual seton players getting angry towards others for not knowing some particular seton BOs or understand how to play Seton in an 'expected' manner.
Seton is a good map. However, I fear the toxicity that comes with it. Same reason why I would never join any custom seton games anymore.