FAF Beta - Feedback
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I should say I also disagree with loyalists not being able to deflect billy, because it is a funny interaction and because it makes sense, and I never saw it happen before to see why it would be a necessary change, after all all it does is make uef player check if there are any loyalists around before sending a billy
with this change (and air crash nerf) we are getting more and more towards everything being "sterile" and unable to do anything outside of their carefully designed bubble of effect on the game, when that is one of things that makes supcom fun - how many different things can happen that still make sense
someone else said, billy should get a buff instead of loyalists getting nerf if there is a problem, I never see anyone using bill at all anyways
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A hives nerf, rejoice everybody! Even if it doesn't matter all that much for try-hard games it's still good stuff
Also the strat elevation reduction is such an interesting idea. T1 static AA now actually chips away quite noticeably at them, looking forward to see how that'll play out in practice
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@azraeel said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
With that all being said, I wouldn't even mind a change for t3 arty to cost like 135k BT and 80-85k mass and game enders to be 30-50k mass more expensive in general.
why tho, i mean i agree but like that's a crazy uptick in already expensive units how are you going to fill that in. I'm asking what game differences are you looking for... ? More experimentals being thrown at each-other i mean yes that's exciting for casters and shit but like???
I agree with Blodir if you are going to nerf the shit out of late game then you have to make other things more interesting.
?????? uh yeah it’s called the currently 5 minute long late t3/t4/rambo sacu stage? That’s actually fun to play with?
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T3 engies were already mass per mass more efficient than hives. Now haves get a 33% nerf and t3 engies are getting a buff so why would anyone ever make hives with the current changes?
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Hives get nerfed to be as strong as kennels > WHY WOULD I EVER MAKE THEM AGAIN
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@thewheelie said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Hives get nerfed to be as strong as kennels
So, when does other factions get hives/kennels? Because now it seems like endless making UEF stronger and other factions weaker.
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When uef get's an above 5% pickrate in tourneys.
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@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@zeldafanboy said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
I don't get why the Loyalist lost the ability to redirect Billy nukes.
It’s as though you add a 5% chance that Cybran laser kills your ACU if you cause a chain pgen explosion.
You’re paying half a million e in the missile + upgrade and risk getting a missile you can’t interact with sent back to you (which you paid for).
I'll necro-quote this. If it's unfair that Cybran armies have once-in-a-blue-moon protection from Billies, then please remove omni from the GC. It's the only experimental that can't be ambushed by a cloak + mazer ACU. Why invest >1M energy into it if there's a chance the enemy team made a GC instead of ML/Mega/Chicken/Fatboy?
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Honestly wouldn't mind that ye
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@wikingest said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@thewheelie said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Hives get nerfed to be as strong as kennels
Because now it seems like endless making UEF stronger and other factions weaker.
Just one example rn:
Totally useless ACU upgrades with not even a little bit of niche by factions:
UEF: 3 (4 if u want to count the drones as separate)
Aeon: 1
Cybran: 0
Seraphim: 0 -
T Tagada unpinned this topic on
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@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
Totally useless ACU upgrades with not even a little bit of niche by factions:
UEF: 3 (4 if u want to count the drones as separate)Looking back at our "discussions", you saying so, I suppose that it is a proof that all UEF ACU upgrades are good. But your very vague statement does not matter really. The amount of ACU upgrades does not mean necessarily that one faction is better. By the way UEF has 3 more than CYB.
So at this point ladder statistics gives us 1697 games UEF, 1346 Cybran, 712 Seraphim, 569 Aeon. (Top right side)
https://kazbek.github.io/FAF-Analytics/ladder
Let's see how this will develop with time, after those balance modifications.Does anybody know, can we see the same statistics about multiplayer? And is there a statistics somewhere about past tourneys?
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I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve made suggestions for all of UEF’s terrible upgrades to be viable.
And you seem to miss the point. UEF got buffed this patch because it has either interesting ways to exemplify faction identity (sparky, jamming) or just completely terrible units (destro). The UEF ACU example is a situation where UEF would in turn see a slew of buffs compared to other factions, because their ACU upgrades are in the worst situation of all the factions. Crying about it is weird because it just infers you’d rather UEF stick to having useless upgrades never seen in a serious game because you have some strange need to see 1-for-1 buffs like factions are at perfect equilibrium already.
Also nice meme using game counts. All those 0 rated and sub 10 game players choosing a faction because of their deep nuanced take on the meta, right? Great data point.
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@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
The UEF ACU example is a situation where UEF would in turn see a slew of buffs compared to other factions, because their ACU upgrades are in the worst situation of all the factions.
Cybran ACU exists. I'd happily trade an upgrade set with 3 useless upgrades over one with zero survivability, clashing core upgrades, zero usefulness in late T2/T3 phase and the strong lategame stuff putting the cardboard ACU in harm's way.
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There is not only 0 rated players in statistics. If someone brings out high rated play, then you pretend, that high rated players deliberatly play trash tactics. If someone brings out overall statistics, then you pretend that all low rated players for some reason deliberatly use worst faction just to mess with you?
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@wikingest No they just use more popular/visually appealing faction (uef and cybran), thats why using statistic including all players is incorrect related to faction strength. And there is also question regarding correlation between faction strength and its popularity.
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@mazornoob said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
The UEF ACU example is a situation where UEF would in turn see a slew of buffs compared to other factions, because their ACU upgrades are in the worst situation of all the factions.
Cybran ACU exists. I'd happily trade an upgrade set with 3 useless upgrades over one with zero survivability, clashing core upgrades, zero usefulness in late T2/T3 phase and the strong lategame stuff putting the cardboard ACU in harm's way.
Nah, you wouldn’t. Cybran getting UEF treatment would put laser on chest, make cloak cause the units in an engie’s build range around your ACU to go invisible while keeping your ACU visible, and then ruin torp launcher by turning it into as expensive as a salem but only doing torp defense. Pay for it twice and you shoot torps, but they drain -15 mass a second as you shoot.
But, you would get to combine t2 and gun so that’s sick.
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@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@mazornoob said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
The UEF ACU example is a situation where UEF would in turn see a slew of buffs compared to other factions, because their ACU upgrades are in the worst situation of all the factions.
Cybran ACU exists. I'd happily trade an upgrade set with 3 useless upgrades over one with zero survivability, clashing core upgrades, zero usefulness in late T2/T3 phase and the strong lategame stuff putting the cardboard ACU in harm's way.
Nah, you wouldn’t. Cybran getting UEF treatment would put laser on chest, make cloak cause the units in an engie’s build range around your ACU to go invisible while keeping your ACU visible, and then ruin torp launcher by turning it into as expensive as a salem but only doing torp defense.
But, you would get to combine t2 and gun so that’s sick.
You seem to be UEF-blind:
- UEF can combine T2 + gun if you want to push then build, or be able to quickly build defenses after pushing. Cybran can't.
- UEF can get nano + gun for a setup roughly equivalent to Cybran stealth + gun.
- UEF can get a shield and push at late T2/early T3. Cybran can't.
- UEF can get an ACU TML and kill enemy mexes from any angle they please. Cybran can't.
- With shield + gun, UEF can defend against small Percie armies. Try fighting 4 percies as Cybran with lazer or 2 percies against a microing player and tell me how it goes.
- UEF can fight T3 armies with billy nukes. Cybran can't unless they get both lazer and cloak, and there's still a risk of getting groundfired.
What Cybran can do that UEF can't:
- Fight navy, on smaller ponds and before mid-T2. Stray from these conditions and you'll get torped. Arguably a tradeoff for not having hover.
- Mazer com-drop. Something nobody except me ever does because of how risky it is.
- Mazer + cloak. Unless the other team is retarded and doesn't have omni by the time I spent >1M energy, only usable defensively.
- Telemazer. Nerfed to accomodate Setons, usually a desperation move and a one-way trip.
I'd happily give up all of these in exchange for a com that isn't relegated back to base by late T2 land. I'm not saying that all UEF ACU upgrades are good, just that calling UEF ACU the worst just because some of them suck is plain stupid.
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@Tomma I have no information about people choosing faction based on visuals (althought I dont say that it cant exist at all, it can, and in medium and high rated also). I chose the faction I thought was best when I started. And all new players with who I have spoken, it was kind of the same. It is quite common questions like: "Is this faction the best?", "What is best faction?", "What faction should I play?", "Is x faction stronger than y?" etc. Those are common discussions with lower rated players. Also, every time I said in the lobby to low rated player, that his faction is hard to play/ weak/ bad for the spot, they always changed the faction.
I agree with you, that there is correlation between faction strenght and its popularity, and people choosing based on popularity, makes statistics only stronger.
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@mazornoob said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@mazornoob said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
@ftxcommando said in FAF Beta - Feedback:
The UEF ACU example is a situation where UEF would in turn see a slew of buffs compared to other factions, because their ACU upgrades are in the worst situation of all the factions.
Cybran ACU exists. I'd happily trade an upgrade set with 3 useless upgrades over one with zero survivability, clashing core upgrades, zero usefulness in late T2/T3 phase and the strong lategame stuff putting the cardboard ACU in harm's way.
Nah, you wouldn’t. Cybran getting UEF treatment would put laser on chest, make cloak cause the units in an engie’s build range around your ACU to go invisible while keeping your ACU visible, and then ruin torp launcher by turning it into as expensive as a salem but only doing torp defense.
But, you would get to combine t2 and gun so that’s sick.
I'd happily give up all of these in exchange for a com that isn't relegated back to base by late T2 land. I'm not saying that all UEF ACU upgrades are good, just that calling UEF ACU the worst just because some of them suck is plain stupid.
I wrote a giant response to the points but I figured it doesn’t really matter since the points are tertiary. I never argued UEF has the weakest ACU. It’s obvious Cybran does. I argued that UEF has the most useless upgrades, which it does. I can very easily give replays and utility explanations for every upgrade that isn’t:
UEF teleport, drones, bubble shield, or Aeon teleport.Far as I see it, it comes down to this:
- You can disagree with the premise that the upgrades are useless
- You can argue to simply remove these noobtrap upgrades which provide no utility and only present false choices
- You can argue about reforms that make them worth building but not oppressive
You mistake me arguing for these upgrades to be adjusted as finding UEF inferior as an ACU. I just want false choices removed from the game, I don’t care if that necessitates buffing other stuff as externalities.
