@ftxcommando said in In the current system, rating 1v1 games is borderline rating manipulation:
@blodir said in In the current system, rating 1v1 games is borderline rating manipulation:
I don't want to throw anyone under the bus so I won't give any names, but I have heard from multiple (other) people that they don't want to play tournaments, because of the impact on their global rating it has. This is especially true for players who are not 2k+ and rating is actually super relevant for them to even get into games. If you think rating doesn't matter, then I guess you might want to try playing all welcome games? Or perhaps you'd like to give the random unbalanced setting a shot?
You can literally entirely reverse this logic. Anybody that is currently 1600 or higher in skill level can immediately become 2200 by farming all welcome games if they care that much about getting into lobbies.
People should take the games as learning experiences, when mid tier players try to actually get better and learn and lose rating from it they don’t get kicked much at all unless it’s an intentionally smaller game and better players joined. In which case, their rating is kinda irrelevant since in those high rated lobbies, everyone knows who can hold their rating and who can’t already.
The way I always operated with tournies is that default is ranked, if both players want to play unranked then by all means. But we got four groups:
- The guys that want to unrank because they enjoy being low ranked in global even though they got decent ladder/2v2/whatever
- The guys that want to unrank because they want to be 2600 even though they are 2200 in ladder/2v2/whatever
- The guys that want to rank because they want to lose global rating and have more chill games
- The guys that want to rank because they see it as a way to get into the lobbies you describe/prestige/whatever.
Why is group B the most important?
I described the reasons in the original post. Global is used for teamgames (including balancing them), not 1v1. While 1v1 and teamgames are related, they are not at all the same. We have no shortage of great teamgames players who aren't as experienced in 1v1 and do not perform at their rating level in 1v1. There are 45 1800+ players online right now, out of these players only swkoll, harzer, blast, dro, pepsi, banani and shen have a comparable 1v1 rating to their global rating (within about 150 rating points). That's 7/45. And yes, I've been in the remaining group of 38 teamgamer champions so far in 2022 too. Seriously, it's ok to be a teamgame player. It's ok to be a gapper or astro enjoyer too.
--> any reason that has to do with "I want to raise/lower my rating through tournaments" is the very definition of rating manipulation. Seeing as their tournament performance doesn't reflect their performance in the games that global rating is used for. This response also goes for maudlin's reply. I get that there's a problem with returning players, but trying to "fix" rating through manipulation is not the way.
I don't know what exactly is the best way to fix the system (no small amount due to not having read the paper on trueskill), so I can only talk about the problems, not really on how to fix them. That being said, it seems like there's an assumption in the system that 1v1 and teamgames are comparable ie. 1v1 performance gives a good description of teamgame performance, which might be true for shooter games (idk I don't play them), but it is not true for supcom.
Just to give you an example, can you imagine Foley (2400 global, 1500 ladder) playing a series of 1v1 matches vs a 2k ladder player. Then you get that newly birthed 2400 ladder guy in a teamgame air spot and he gets brutally dominated by now 2k rated Foley. Maybe you feel like it's justified that finally the ladder champions get the recognition they deserve or whatever, but in reality nobody's experience is improved.
I mean I'm sorry to say this guys, but I'd take Foley in a 5v5 mapgen any day over you guys (swkoll 2.2k ladder, noc 1.8k ladder, ftx, srry idk your rating), so I'm really glad he hasn't got any bright ideas about playing any 1v1 tournys recently.
As for making TD job harder (or any replay viewer for that matter), I think this is the only solid argument. The only real fix is that there should be win/loss/draw indicator. However:
- there's no problem in terms of verifying results. Even if someone falsified results they would be found out and permabanned from tournys for wasting whatever few minutes it took for the TD to 10x through replays in case of conflict in player statements
- the issue of seeing which game in a series was a win/loss doesn't matter for TDing, only for replay viewing and maybe for casting if the casters have downtime and want to look back. This is a legit issue for sure though
- I would argue that the legit part of the issue is outweighed by the downsides of 1. people being disincentivized to play tournaments and 2. general experience of people playing custom games