Loyalists can't compete with Titans.
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A little about myself and the games I play. I am about an 800 ranked player in 1v1’s and a little higher in team games. Predominantly I play Aeon, but the Cybran are very fun to play. Mapgen maps and any map that isn’t a less than 3 lane map are my preferred maps. Basically maps that discourage firebase standoff matches. With that in mind, I want FAF to move in a direction that continues to encourage maps with many avenues of attack.
The problem with open maps or maps with many avenues of attack is that raids will constantly be a thorn in your side. There are specialised units designed for raiding to fulfil such roles. Each tier of land has a unit designed for raiding. At T3 the kings of raiding are the Loyalist and Titan. Neither is designed to be used in a straight engagement as heavier and slower units (Bricks and Percivals) can quickly dispatch them.
There is disparity between the effectiveness of Loyalists and Titans as raid units. In my lower level of play, APM and response time are limited. A common method of dealing with raiding units is to grab whatever is nearby, attack-move into the path of the raid, then get back onto more important (or not) matters. Typically T1 bombers are dispatched because they are faster than the raiding land units. This works on the Loyalist but not the Titan. The Loyalist can be killed with approximately 4 passes from 3 bombers, thereby dealing with the raid. The Titan on the other hand takes over 3 times longer to kill because its shield pops back online so quickly. I encourage people to grab 3 bombers in a sandbox game and count how long it takes to kill the Loyalist and Titan.
The same is true if T1 or T2 (the leftovers) are used to “mop up” the raid. While both Loyalists and Titans are effective at cleaning up lower tiered units, the recharge of the Titans shields necessitate enough fire power to kill it in one go before the shield returns. If the Titan is not killed in one go, it lasts while raiding far longer than the Loyalist, where all damage done is permanent.
When Loyalists are dispatched to fight Titan raids (or vice versa) so long as both units are at full strength the Loyalist will barely defeat the Titan. But these are ideal conditions and that is often not the case. If the Titan dips out of range for a literal second, the shield will blink back online before it dies and the Loyalist will be dispatched instead. 1 Second of miss-micro at the 800 ranking level is very common – it’s the norm.
I’ve heard that the stun on death which Loyalists possess evens things out in major engagements between T3 armies. Not a chance. It just doesn’t work out that way in my level of play. If Percivals are present, Cybran cannot take a straight engagement, period. If it’s only Titans present against a Loyalist army, the Loyalists don’t get in close enough (same move speed) to stun a mob of Titans.
Some solutions to the aforementioned problems include: Increasing the time it takes Titan shields to come back online (12s -> 18s) or increasing the Loyalists move speed. By changing the Titan’s shield, it will make it possible to kill Titans with small forces of air units, making a fairer playing field instead of UEF players having a monumental advantage in anti-raid ability. It will also make the Titan less immortal to drips and drabs of lower tiered units which can easily take out the Loyalist over time. By increasing the move speed of Loyalists they will be able to catch up to Titans raiding the backline and prevent that 1 second of the Titan dropping out of range, thereby surviving and continuing to raid. The move speed will also allow Loyalists to make use of their stun ability in a more ubiquitous manner. A rework of the Loyalist activated ability to make it more attractive to lower level play would also bring the power level of the Loyalist more in line with the Titan by increasing its effectiveness as a main army unit.
Hopefully the disparity between the effectiveness of the Titan and Loyalist as raid units (and low tier unit janitors) has been sufficiently illustrated. I would like to hear other suggestions for closing the gap in usefulness between these two units.
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As you said, Titans do lose 1v1 against Loyalists. Granted, this is unmicro'd and without any external force applied, but the heavy stun weapon Loyalists use, that thing shreds Titan's shields!
Another thing is that in larger groups, Loyalists vs Titans, Loyalists usually win as when they die, they stun the Titans which causes them to be unable to fire - if they are in close-range combat.
Loyalists also have slightly higher DPS when adding up both of the weapons it uses, so I believe that that makes up for the lack of a shield. Think about it, the Titan has 800 HP over the Loyalist, yet the Loyalist still wins. That goes to show you how strong the Loyalist is, being able to shed out 800 points of damage in the same time frame and still come out on top.
Overall, I do think Titans are a stronger option but not by much. But, I do think the EMP radius needs to be adjusted to make the Loyalist slightly stronger. I'm not too sure how but adjusted to be more effective.
~ Stryker
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The problem is the Titan's strength as a raid unit. That shield recharge is very potent, enough to significantly delay their destruction by air units.
As this is a niche problem, a niche solution is required that will leave the Titan's effectiveness in other area's unaffected. Ergo, my suggestion to nerf the time taken for the shield to come back online by a few seconds. -
Loya is superior at dealing at strong t2 (ilshies) than titan due to the stun interval on their gun allowing them to get out of range or delay enemy dps. Nerfing titan shield regen is not something that leaves it unaffected in other areas, it’s a general blanket nerf that impacts the whole viability of using the unit in small, medium, and large quantities.
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Are you talking about ShieldRechargeTime or ShieldRegenRate?
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Tldr: titans op, pls nerf
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@ftxcommando said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Loya is superior at dealing at strong t2 (ilshies) than titan due to the stun interval on their gun allowing them to get out of range or delay enemy dps
I think the OP would be more interested in what to do against titans as cybran instead of how to use loyas better.
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Cybran loses to titans because they have no early t3 ACU combat upgrade nor parashields. If they had both of these, I really don’t see a big difference in the viability of either unit. Wouldn’t even care if the factions had the unit abilities reversed.
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Loyalists are slightly (very slightly) worse than Titans at raiding or fighting T3 and so much better at fighting T2 with their stun. A group of Loyas also beat Titans.
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Loyas are better when fighting heavy T2 Forces and T3 (due to the stun). You can also use them as a way to either disengage a big t3 army fight (you run in with a couple of loyas that will stun the enemy army while you run away with the rest of yours). Cybran also has Bricks which are better at raiding (dropping them to whole expansions/on T3 mexes which just take too long to kill for a loya or two). You also get deceivers which makes raids much easier to execute and you can do stealth drops. Cybran surely doesn't lack options for raiding. But yes, it is true that loyas are worse than Titans for raiding but this isn't imbalanced as Cybran is more than compensated for having other raiding tools at their disposal.
Currently, the loyas do feel a bit weaker compared to Titans (not because of the raiding context) but it's still a bit too early to say whether Titans need a nerf, Loyas need a buff or nothing needs to be done at all. -
Thank you for clarifying that Tagada. You made some interesting gameplay points I'll be eager to try out (e.g. the disengage tactics). I do feel that Titan+Parashield vs Loyalist+Deciever isn't an equal comparison because counter-intel in general is too easy to defeat with how accessible, versatile, cheep and fast T1 air scouts are. However in lower league play (my field) counter-intel can still be potent.
What other raid alternatives aside from Brick drops and Loyalist+Deciever runbys are there for Cybran (excluding air)?@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Loyas are better when fighting heavy T2 Forces and T3 (due to the stun)
I've never seen the Loyalist stun T3. Thus I assume you meant "Loyas are better when fighting armies that are primarily T2 with a little T3 (due to the stun)".
Instead of nerfing the Titan (since no-one agrees its ShieldRechargeTime is OP), would allowing the Loyalist to prioritise different units with each of its weapons, so it can stun T2, while fighting T3 with its other weapon? Or perhaps change its default target to T3 over T2? Just spitballing here. -
They are better vs heavy T2 because they stun them with their gun allowing them to easily kite those armies. They are also arguably better vs full on T3 armies since if you use T3 light bots as a full on fighting force (not recommended but sometimes you need to) then loyas death EMP works really well while Titans shield regen doesn't do anything.
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The main dps gun is short range. It's 20 range for 136 dps while the 24 range gun has 70 dps. This makes them bad to use against certain t2 units such as obsidians, especially considering the low health. They just don't last very long.
The charge ability is kind of meh since using it disables the weapons. -
@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Titans shield regen doesn't do anything
You are thinking of regen shields have while still up. This is called "ShieldRegenRate" in the source files. This is the HP/s amount of the shield.
A separate mechanic governs regen when the shield is down. This is called "ShieldRechargeTime" in the source files. This is the time taken for the shield to come back online.
Many people make the mistake of confusing the two. -
@chenbro101
I agree with all of that. But any change to the Titan won't be accepted because the balance team thinks they are fine despite the obvious performance disparities. Any buff to the Loyalist will probably be needed, but once again, the balance team is too conservative to try out any potential solutions we suggest.Also, the vision radius of the T2 units is enough to see a loyalist shooting it, thus making Loyalist+Deciever combo raid/clean-up unit unable to avoid damage, unlike a Titan+Parashield combo.
The imbalance is there, its just that people can't (or don't want to) see it.
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@arran said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Titans shield regen doesn't do anything
You are thinking of regen shields have while still up. This is called "ShieldRegenRate" in the source files. This is the HP/s amount of the shield.
A separate mechanic governs regen when the shield is down. This is called "ShieldRechargeTime" in the source files. This is the time taken for the shield to come back online.
Many people make the mistake of confusing the two.Yes, I am sure this is exactly what I was thinking and as a Balance Team Lead, I don't know the difference between these two, thanks for explaining that to me.
@arran said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
@chenbro101
I agree with all of that. But any change to the Titan won't be accepted because the balance team thinks they are fine despite the obvious performance disparities. Any buff to the Loyalist will probably be needed, but once again, the balance team is too conservative to try out any potential solutions we suggest.It's pretty funny how after someone refutes your initial arguments and explains why it is how it is you just default back to: They are wrong because they are wrong and I am right because I said so. Balance team isn't conservative but there needs to be a clear reason for a change. Right now there isn't one as the main reason Titans and to an extent, Loyas were so powerful the last few months because of a BT buff that was made in the last patch that is getting reverted. I would like to remind people that the patch that defined the balance between Titan, Loyas, and other T3 and T2 units was in May 2020, that's quite some time ago and somehow I don't see Pro players complaining about how strong Titan is compared to Loya.
Also, the vision radius of the T2 units is enough to see a loyalist shooting it, thus making Loyalist+Deciever combo raid/clean-up unit unable to avoid damage, unlike a Titan+Parashield combo.
I am not quite sure if you understand how the vision works in this game because of engine quirks, just because a unit vision is 20 and Loyas 2nd gun has 20 range it doesn't mean that Loya will be shot at every time it can shoot. The game takes quite a long time to register a unit that comes into a vision while if it leaves it disappears nearly immediately. The vision is also not a perfect circle and because of these things the effective vision if the enemy unit keeps dashing in and out is smaller.
The imbalance is there, its just that people can't (or don't want to) see it.
Pretty high of you to assume that everyone else, including the balance team, is wrong and you are right.
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loyalist is better vs t2 but in a fight vs titans i'd take titans
one upside, one downside, what's the problem really? do you want all units to have the same functionality? -
Seems I poked the bear @Tagada. Sorry if it felt like your honour or pride were insulted as that was not my intention. But as we've both shown, when opinions clash the discussion can get a little heated.
@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Pro players complaining about how strong Titan is compared to Loya.
This might seem strange, but I think "pro" players aren't a good judge in this situation as these issues aren't as impactful in higher rated games. It is normal (generalisation incoming) in "pro" games for T3 to be fielded at about the 20 minute mark. Often dozens of T3 are produced too. As such, larger clashes featuring dozens of units are the norm and little attention is paid (i.e. looking, zoomed in, while the units actually fight) to smaller bands (2-4) of T3 units.
At my level (<1000), most games conclude before either player gets to T3, or when T3 is reached (often at 30-35 minutes), it ends before more than a dozen are produced. EXP's are a rarity. Thus the importance placed upon those very few units is much greater, and we look, zoomed in, (to the detriment of our bases and map control) at how fights progress.
It is from those close observations the following points stood out:
- Loyalists often lost to Titans because a lack of intel (or intel refresh rate) stopped the first volley of the 24 range weapon firing before the Titan got into range. ShieldRechargeTime also factored in regardless as a single second of miss micro allowed the Titan shield to come back online. A single second seemed a little harsh to me.
- Against T2, the Loyalist stun was very nice, making the Loyalist far better than the Titan against equivalent numbers of T2. But the lack of sustain (i.e. shield) made them about 3x more vulnerable to air pressure. Also when outnumbered by T2, they could not stun enough units and thus their low HP (only ~340hp higher on average than main T2 units) and higher cost (than T2) made them relatively weak without kiting. Kiting is hard in lower leagues btw. We aren't as good and have lower apm. So I understand point 2 wouldn't be an issue for "pros", but it is for Joes.
@Tagada I'd like to hear your opinions on those points, keeping in mind the average Joe. Very few of use are >2000 and you being about 2500 might make you out of touch with how low rated players feel about certain things. No disrespect intended.
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So what is your point there besides nerfing the only thing titans are good at?
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Your entire argument is predicated on t1 units being bad at taking out t3 units.
If your opponent has t3 and you can only counter it with t1, you should lose.
