Loyalists can't compete with Titans.
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Thank you for clarifying that Tagada. You made some interesting gameplay points I'll be eager to try out (e.g. the disengage tactics). I do feel that Titan+Parashield vs Loyalist+Deciever isn't an equal comparison because counter-intel in general is too easy to defeat with how accessible, versatile, cheep and fast T1 air scouts are. However in lower league play (my field) counter-intel can still be potent.
What other raid alternatives aside from Brick drops and Loyalist+Deciever runbys are there for Cybran (excluding air)?@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Loyas are better when fighting heavy T2 Forces and T3 (due to the stun)
I've never seen the Loyalist stun T3. Thus I assume you meant "Loyas are better when fighting armies that are primarily T2 with a little T3 (due to the stun)".
Instead of nerfing the Titan (since no-one agrees its ShieldRechargeTime is OP), would allowing the Loyalist to prioritise different units with each of its weapons, so it can stun T2, while fighting T3 with its other weapon? Or perhaps change its default target to T3 over T2? Just spitballing here. -
They are better vs heavy T2 because they stun them with their gun allowing them to easily kite those armies. They are also arguably better vs full on T3 armies since if you use T3 light bots as a full on fighting force (not recommended but sometimes you need to) then loyas death EMP works really well while Titans shield regen doesn't do anything.
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The main dps gun is short range. It's 20 range for 136 dps while the 24 range gun has 70 dps. This makes them bad to use against certain t2 units such as obsidians, especially considering the low health. They just don't last very long.
The charge ability is kind of meh since using it disables the weapons. -
@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Titans shield regen doesn't do anything
You are thinking of regen shields have while still up. This is called "ShieldRegenRate" in the source files. This is the HP/s amount of the shield.
A separate mechanic governs regen when the shield is down. This is called "ShieldRechargeTime" in the source files. This is the time taken for the shield to come back online.
Many people make the mistake of confusing the two. -
@chenbro101
I agree with all of that. But any change to the Titan won't be accepted because the balance team thinks they are fine despite the obvious performance disparities. Any buff to the Loyalist will probably be needed, but once again, the balance team is too conservative to try out any potential solutions we suggest.Also, the vision radius of the T2 units is enough to see a loyalist shooting it, thus making Loyalist+Deciever combo raid/clean-up unit unable to avoid damage, unlike a Titan+Parashield combo.
The imbalance is there, its just that people can't (or don't want to) see it.
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@arran said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Titans shield regen doesn't do anything
You are thinking of regen shields have while still up. This is called "ShieldRegenRate" in the source files. This is the HP/s amount of the shield.
A separate mechanic governs regen when the shield is down. This is called "ShieldRechargeTime" in the source files. This is the time taken for the shield to come back online.
Many people make the mistake of confusing the two.Yes, I am sure this is exactly what I was thinking and as a Balance Team Lead, I don't know the difference between these two, thanks for explaining that to me.
@arran said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
@chenbro101
I agree with all of that. But any change to the Titan won't be accepted because the balance team thinks they are fine despite the obvious performance disparities. Any buff to the Loyalist will probably be needed, but once again, the balance team is too conservative to try out any potential solutions we suggest.It's pretty funny how after someone refutes your initial arguments and explains why it is how it is you just default back to: They are wrong because they are wrong and I am right because I said so. Balance team isn't conservative but there needs to be a clear reason for a change. Right now there isn't one as the main reason Titans and to an extent, Loyas were so powerful the last few months because of a BT buff that was made in the last patch that is getting reverted. I would like to remind people that the patch that defined the balance between Titan, Loyas, and other T3 and T2 units was in May 2020, that's quite some time ago and somehow I don't see Pro players complaining about how strong Titan is compared to Loya.
Also, the vision radius of the T2 units is enough to see a loyalist shooting it, thus making Loyalist+Deciever combo raid/clean-up unit unable to avoid damage, unlike a Titan+Parashield combo.
I am not quite sure if you understand how the vision works in this game because of engine quirks, just because a unit vision is 20 and Loyas 2nd gun has 20 range it doesn't mean that Loya will be shot at every time it can shoot. The game takes quite a long time to register a unit that comes into a vision while if it leaves it disappears nearly immediately. The vision is also not a perfect circle and because of these things the effective vision if the enemy unit keeps dashing in and out is smaller.
The imbalance is there, its just that people can't (or don't want to) see it.
Pretty high of you to assume that everyone else, including the balance team, is wrong and you are right.
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loyalist is better vs t2 but in a fight vs titans i'd take titans
one upside, one downside, what's the problem really? do you want all units to have the same functionality? -
Seems I poked the bear @Tagada. Sorry if it felt like your honour or pride were insulted as that was not my intention. But as we've both shown, when opinions clash the discussion can get a little heated.
@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Pro players complaining about how strong Titan is compared to Loya.
This might seem strange, but I think "pro" players aren't a good judge in this situation as these issues aren't as impactful in higher rated games. It is normal (generalisation incoming) in "pro" games for T3 to be fielded at about the 20 minute mark. Often dozens of T3 are produced too. As such, larger clashes featuring dozens of units are the norm and little attention is paid (i.e. looking, zoomed in, while the units actually fight) to smaller bands (2-4) of T3 units.
At my level (<1000), most games conclude before either player gets to T3, or when T3 is reached (often at 30-35 minutes), it ends before more than a dozen are produced. EXP's are a rarity. Thus the importance placed upon those very few units is much greater, and we look, zoomed in, (to the detriment of our bases and map control) at how fights progress.
It is from those close observations the following points stood out:
- Loyalists often lost to Titans because a lack of intel (or intel refresh rate) stopped the first volley of the 24 range weapon firing before the Titan got into range. ShieldRechargeTime also factored in regardless as a single second of miss micro allowed the Titan shield to come back online. A single second seemed a little harsh to me.
- Against T2, the Loyalist stun was very nice, making the Loyalist far better than the Titan against equivalent numbers of T2. But the lack of sustain (i.e. shield) made them about 3x more vulnerable to air pressure. Also when outnumbered by T2, they could not stun enough units and thus their low HP (only ~340hp higher on average than main T2 units) and higher cost (than T2) made them relatively weak without kiting. Kiting is hard in lower leagues btw. We aren't as good and have lower apm. So I understand point 2 wouldn't be an issue for "pros", but it is for Joes.
@Tagada I'd like to hear your opinions on those points, keeping in mind the average Joe. Very few of use are >2000 and you being about 2500 might make you out of touch with how low rated players feel about certain things. No disrespect intended.
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So what is your point there besides nerfing the only thing titans are good at?
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Your entire argument is predicated on t1 units being bad at taking out t3 units.
If your opponent has t3 and you can only counter it with t1, you should lose.
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Balance has no impact on low rated games. There are 1000 blunders by both players before titans are ever on the field.
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@thomashiatt said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
Balance has no impact on low rated games. There are 1000 blunders by both players before titans are ever on the field.
Global rating is very accurate at predicting the outcome of custom matches involving players under 1k rating because global rating is very accurate at predicting the collective severity of the mistakes each player is going to make.
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I don't really care for nerfing the titan. Just make the charge ability on the loya useful, like not disabling the weapon.
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Has anyone found the current Loyalist charge ability useful? 480 mass for a 3 second stun with radius 10 (if I've gotten my stats right) never felt very useful; In theory it seems great, especially in large army fights, where you sacrifice dying Loyalists, but in practice, it feels bad.
If Titans are king of raids, then Loyalists are (or should be) better at large army clashes via their stun. Perhaps making the charge ability "feel" better is the small buff they need? -
An idea, perhaps not a good idea, but an idea none-the-less.
-> Remove the Loyalist charge ability and instead give the Loyalist the charge speed increase when under 40% HP (1000HP). Thats all.
Pros: Allows near death Loyalists to race into enemy clumps better for a more reliable stun. Also, more reliable and versatile than current charge ability. Might encourage deliberately lowering Loyalist HP for fast suicide squad raids? Weapons would still function while the ability is in effect, unlike the charge ability.
Cons: No longer has access to increased stun duration from activated ability. Can't activate (easily) on demand like the charge ability. Requires low HP, making the ability useless in many standard situations. Still semi-micro intensive, as it involves close battle micro.
Let me know if this idea is good, or bonkers.
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@arran said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:
An idea, perhaps not a good idea, but an idea none-the-less.
-> Remove the Loyalist charge ability and instead give the Loyalist the charge speed increase when under 40% HP (1000HP). Thats all.
step 1: hit your own loyas with t1 bombers to drop them to 39% health
step 2: send them to raid enemy mexes or to do whatever
it's bad to have units develop abilities through taking damage. damage is bad and, if we had unlimited CPU power and wanted to make a more accurate simulation, we would probably have units lose functionality as they took damage.
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Imagine you get vet on the loya after microing it heavily and then it... slows down?
