Loyalists can't compete with Titans.

Seems I poked the bear @Tagada. Sorry if it felt like your honour or pride were insulted as that was not my intention. But as we've both shown, when opinions clash the discussion can get a little heated.

@tagada said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:

Pro players complaining about how strong Titan is compared to Loya.

This might seem strange, but I think "pro" players aren't a good judge in this situation as these issues aren't as impactful in higher rated games. It is normal (generalisation incoming) in "pro" games for T3 to be fielded at about the 20 minute mark. Often dozens of T3 are produced too. As such, larger clashes featuring dozens of units are the norm and little attention is paid (i.e. looking, zoomed in, while the units actually fight) to smaller bands (2-4) of T3 units.

At my level (<1000), most games conclude before either player gets to T3, or when T3 is reached (often at 30-35 minutes), it ends before more than a dozen are produced. EXP's are a rarity. Thus the importance placed upon those very few units is much greater, and we look, zoomed in, (to the detriment of our bases and map control) at how fights progress.

It is from those close observations the following points stood out:

1. Loyalists often lost to Titans because a lack of intel (or intel refresh rate) stopped the first volley of the 24 range weapon firing before the Titan got into range. ShieldRechargeTime also factored in regardless as a single second of miss micro allowed the Titan shield to come back online. A single second seemed a little harsh to me.
2. Against T2, the Loyalist stun was very nice, making the Loyalist far better than the Titan against equivalent numbers of T2. But the lack of sustain (i.e. shield) made them about 3x more vulnerable to air pressure. Also when outnumbered by T2, they could not stun enough units and thus their low HP (only ~340hp higher on average than main T2 units) and higher cost (than T2) made them relatively weak without kiting. Kiting is hard in lower leagues btw. We aren't as good and have lower apm. So I understand point 2 wouldn't be an issue for "pros", but it is for Joes.

@Tagada I'd like to hear your opinions on those points, keeping in mind the average Joe. Very few of use are >2000 and you being about 2500 might make you out of touch with how low rated players feel about certain things. No disrespect intended.

So what is your point there besides nerfing the only thing titans are good at?

Your entire argument is predicated on t1 units being bad at taking out t3 units.

If your opponent has t3 and you can only counter it with t1, you should lose.

Balance has no impact on low rated games. There are 1000 blunders by both players before titans are ever on the field.

@thomashiatt said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:

Balance has no impact on low rated games. There are 1000 blunders by both players before titans are ever on the field.

Global rating is very accurate at predicting the outcome of custom matches involving players under 1k rating because global rating is very accurate at predicting the collective severity of the mistakes each player is going to make.

I don't really care for nerfing the titan. Just make the charge ability on the loya useful, like not disabling the weapon.

Has anyone found the current Loyalist charge ability useful? 480 mass for a 3 second stun with radius 10 (if I've gotten my stats right) never felt very useful; In theory it seems great, especially in large army fights, where you sacrifice dying Loyalists, but in practice, it feels bad.
If Titans are king of raids, then Loyalists are (or should be) better at large army clashes via their stun. Perhaps making the charge ability "feel" better is the small buff they need?

An idea, perhaps not a good idea, but an idea none-the-less.

-> Remove the Loyalist charge ability and instead give the Loyalist the charge speed increase when under 40% HP (1000HP). Thats all.

Pros: Allows near death Loyalists to race into enemy clumps better for a more reliable stun. Also, more reliable and versatile than current charge ability. Might encourage deliberately lowering Loyalist HP for fast suicide squad raids? Weapons would still function while the ability is in effect, unlike the charge ability.

Cons: No longer has access to increased stun duration from activated ability. Can't activate (easily) on demand like the charge ability. Requires low HP, making the ability useless in many standard situations. Still semi-micro intensive, as it involves close battle micro.

Let me know if this idea is good, or bonkers.

@arran said in Loyalists can't compete with Titans.:

An idea, perhaps not a good idea, but an idea none-the-less.

-> Remove the Loyalist charge ability and instead give the Loyalist the charge speed increase when under 40% HP (1000HP). Thats all.

step 1: hit your own loyas with t1 bombers to drop them to 39% health

step 2: send them to raid enemy mexes or to do whatever

it's bad to have units develop abilities through taking damage. damage is bad and, if we had unlimited CPU power and wanted to make a more accurate simulation, we would probably have units lose functionality as they took damage.

Imagine you get vet on the loya after microing it heavily and then it... slows down?