Sera can't deal with enemy's guncom push on t2 without a bunker

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Lets consider a typical situation in context of 1v1 game
mid t2, equal eco, sera against (any not-sera race)

consider that enemy has guncom and some t2 spam
and he goes to push

Problem: Sera can't deal with it without a bunker
Why, you ask? Because if sera makes ilshavohs, enemy got advantage in overcharge usage: every his overcharge will be more efficient, than yours, so sera loses
If sera makes t2 hover - he loses, because hovers are weaker than profile land tanks
if sera makes t1 spam - he loses, because t1 spam loses against enemy t2 spam

Ok, so just make a bunker, you say
But on ladder maps there is a few ways to push, so you have to make few bunkers just to counter guncom with some spam. Even if you can do that, you will waste a lot of resourses on it and gonna lose as result

Ok, and what do you suggest?
Possible solution: give regen aura unique effect - overcharge resist. Every unit in aura gains 25/50% (not sure about numbers, but enough big digitals to increase the requirements for the enemy's economy level to overcharge ilshas) resist to overcharge damage. So sera would be able to defend against that type of attack

So what do you think?

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sera is the best faction to do T2 gun com timing push, so this is a non-issue.

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@keyser how sera can push on t2 when his army dies from overcharges faster than any other?
other factions have either sheilds or cheaper units or both of it
overcharges are the reason why sera can push vs enemy com only on early t3, with some shields

until that sera has to avoid enemy com unless he has a way bigger army

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sera can stack gun + tech + nano, and keep acu in front line to OC everything while having the best unit composition on T2 (ilshy + zthuue)
it can even do gun + regen aura + nano, which allow to further buff the T2 army.

obsdian cost as much as ilshies. Also rhino are pretty close in term of cost (300 vs 360). Only uef have a real advantage vs OC; and this is even mitigated by the fact that you need more e to OC ilshies than pillar (You also need 1 more energy storage).

So i'll repeat myself sera is the best faction to achieve timing push at T2 stage.

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Yeah, Seraphim and UEF are the best mid game land factions. Aeon has nice t2 air and strong ACU + hover shield. Cybran has stealth + hoplite and Corsair.

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I am welcoming every ACU with open arms, wich chooses to push into me when I have more then 4 Illshies.

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@keyser uef will already push with cheap nano-regen and shields while sera com wouldn't have nanoregen because too expensive
no t2 turrets for sera = lose in that case (however, sera nano will be uselles too because UEF still can OC ilshas unless you have a bunker)

also, you're mistaken, ilshas have 2500 hp, so to OC them you need only 1 energy storage (6500E to OC). To OC pillars you still need 1 energy storage (without it you can't even overcharge)

pillars are covered with 3000HP shields. You can't even kill anyone with your OC while shields is up, while your expensive ilshas dying and you can do nothing.
UEF com just needs to click one button when he got 6500e to make a lot of damage to your army, and you can't punish him for that. He just has 30 range, gonna kill ilshas and retreat to his spam if you dear to attack him. Attack with less army, because he already killed atleast 1 ilsh and gonna kill few again before you even can destroy shields

aeon can cover obsidians with shields too
aeon can overcharge ilshas from 35 range (sera can do nothing with 35 range except bunker) and also may go chrono that will just destroy sera army, RIP sera

well, ok, cybran are not the main problem here

So i'll repeat myself UEF is the best faction to destroy sera on t2 and sera can do nothing with it except bunkerbuilding

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@herzer99 said in Sera can't deal with enemy's guncom push on t2 without a bunker:

I am welcoming every ACU with open arms, wich chooses to push into me when I have more then 4 Illshies.

lets 1v1 test? i'll kill your guncom and 5 ilshes with 1 UEF nanoguncom and 2 shields, if just have 3 t2 pgens on the base

just ez veterancy for UEF com

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OMG DOOD!! How did we not notice that seraphim is LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE until just now?!? I just lost a game as SERAPHIM because my opponent made a GUNCOM and did a T2 LAND PUSH!! It was TOTALLY UNSTOPPABLE because the GAME IS BROKEN!!! I can even construct an UNLIMITED NUMBER of scenarios IN MY MIND and ON PAPER which PROVE IT.

(also it is just a fact that it takes more than one energy storage to kill and obsidian or ilshavoh with overcharge. Stop trying to argue against objective facts or you will be banned!)

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@ThomasHiatt (also it is just a fact that it takes more than one energy storage to kill and obsidian or ilshavoh with overcharge
dude, r u ok?
what r u smoking guys? or we play in different games?
watch that, i made a videotest SPECIAL for you https://youtu.be/HepP72K2HOM

maybe you was joking then its for @keyser

and i don't said that sera cannot counter t2 uef nanoguncom-landpush, i said that he cannot do it without bunkerbuilding or totally won air

if you guys gonna test it you also will see it. Give both players 3 t2 pgens, 1e storage, guns
nano for uef
and t2 army for both players (total mass equal) (if you want - give some upgrades to sera com instead of ilshas, just keep mass count equal)
in this scenario sera loses in 100% cases, just after few OCes from UEF com
uef com can just go, OC, and retreat until enough ilshas are dead. Sera com will shoot shields and got damaged by gatlings if tries the same

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even with 2nd regen aura ilshas has only 3000 HP and enemy can oneshot them with just 1e storage
and sorry, sera can't do anything with that, he has no units with 30+ range on t2 (except MML), no mobile shields, so build a bunker or suck. Nice balance tho.

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Solutions:
-Get your own gun, potentially with nano
-Rush T3 land for sniper bots, they're basically guncom hard counters
-Sera T2 air has the highest damage bombers. If the ACU is dodging bombs it isn't advancing as fast
-Sera has the most flak resistant T2 gunships
-Use zthuees to kill them during the upgrade
-First regen field effectively gives T1 tanks 33% more HP vs gun ACU

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but those are a few examples

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@Deribus said in Sera can't deal with enemy's guncom push on t2 without a bunker:

Solutions:
-Get your own gun, potentially with nano
-Rush T3 land for sniper bots, they're basically guncom hard counters
-Sera T2 air has the highest damage bombers. If the ACU is dodging bombs it isn't advancing as fast
-Sera has the most flak resistant T2 gunships
-Use zthuees to kill them during the upgrade
-First regen field effectively gives T1 tanks 33% more HP vs gun ACU

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but those are a few examples

1)gun is no solution, because you can't OC his units as him. They're shielded. Yours - not.
2)t3 factory is not a thing that you can rush fast enough to play t3 units on mid t2 stage. If you're going to t3 that fast - you will have no t2 spam at all, and you dead again (check it's cost and buildtime)
3)to play t2 bombers you should win the air first. I consider equal situation. Nothas can't win a fight vs t1 interseptors on equal mass, so if enemy has air spam on equal mass - nothas gonna drop 1 bomb, and then air fight happens, and you loses air.
4) same as 3
5) ridicolous. zthuees gonna die from him spam. arty cannot fight vs tanks on early game. And he's gonna upgrade on his territorry, not on my base
6) t1 spam is uselles against his t2 spam. (And t1 field effectively gives T1 tanks 0% more HP vs UEF 200dmg. gun)

any other?

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@ETFreeman You talk about equal mass, but if your opponent has gun, mobile shields, and T2 units while you don't, and you have equal mass, you by definition have the extra mass to spend on these projects.

If you're equally matched except the enemy has gun and many more T2 units, then you've lost due to an eco and unit disadvantage, not gun.

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he has gun, nanoregen and t2 spam. I have gun and spam on equal mass as his nanoregen+his army

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nothas actually can do some job if my army has few mobile flaks

but then i need t2 land + t2 air, while enemy can focus only on t2 land
need to think about that
but still quite disappointing that a fraction which must be strong at t2 has to go t2 air just because has no any land/com overcharge counter
will continue tomorrow maybe. 4 am for me...

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How to win as Seraphim vs UEF considering the positions are equal and both of you switch to t2 land:
you get T2 + Gun while UEF ACU gets Nano + Gun.
You send your army NOT to your acu but to other frontline where enemy doesn't have ACU either and you abuse the fact that your army is very strong on t2. If enemy acu wants to push you build 1 t2 pd and stand in front of it so that enemy ACU can't kill it. After a while you get 3rd t3 pgen and you can go nano yourself, switch to t3 (UEF switches to t3 as well) and then your ACU + t3 unit composition (Siege tanks, Shield + Snipers) are much better if micro'ed correctly so you can push and win the game by slowly killing his expansions and taking good trades.

Now unless you can provide some specific questions, or situations please stop posting so much cause I feel like you ignore other posts and just try to convince everyone of your truth (spoiler alert it's not like that and TOP 10 players are telling you that) and If that's the case just go somewhere else because then this discussion is pointless.

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I'm wondering if OP considers Cybran better in this situation.

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@Tagada said in Sera can't deal with enemy's guncom push on t2 without a bunker:

build 1 t2 pd

and that's exactly what i'm talking about, have to build pds to counter
and then must defend pds from missiles, for example, and that's how bunker is born
just spending mass on something that can't even move, while enemy can make something more useful and then just go another way (depends on the map, yes), forcing you to wasting more mass (more pds) i guess?

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Can you even read?
"You send your army NOT to your acu but to other frontline where enemy doesn't have ACU either and you abuse the fact that your army is very strong on t2. If enemy acu wants to push you build 1 t2 pd and stand in front of it so that enemy ACU can't kill it."

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