Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread
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Could fields of isis 4v4 please be removed from tmm. No one likes playing it. No one asked for it. If I wanted to play a turtle map that goes on for 1.5h I would just play gap.
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fields of isis 4v4 would be tolerable if the bases had proper buildspace for what the map's designed for: t3 air grids and t3 arty grids. instead, the mex spread makes it so that you can barely fit anything big in ur base without a mex interrupting it, and to make it worse the terrain is terrible
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Verdanis has the mex count of an average 2v2 map but is in the 4v4 pool resulting in 5 safe mexes per player on a 20km map. Honestly not sure why it's in this pool.
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Adaptive Moon - this map must have been made by someone who hates aeon. On the side lanes, the terrain is about 80% hilly. And the worst kind of hilliness: unpredictable small hills scattered absolutely everywhere. Iirc the height map was made with some real-world data, but it's really not good for gameplay.
Example: park some tanks here and the entire side becomes an absolute no-go zone for aeon. This is an issue on a lane thats all about t1 spam to secure reclaim. From this spot you can then also raid in any direction you want, even straight into the back mexes.
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the entire map pool is so shit.... map pool from last season was way better...
the new maps are all small... or big and empty..... feel like every game end in 10 minutes... just a trash pool.and never get maps from pool side 2... so why they are there ?
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@thewheelie said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:
Verdanis has the mex count of an average 2v2 map but is in the 4v4 pool resulting in 5 safe mexes per player on a 20km map. Honestly not sure why it's in this pool.
Hey, Farm, this map should at the very least be put in the <500 pool so it has almost no chance of being in the higher tiers. This was overlooked when the team reviewed the pool and we will adjust it accordingly.
Secondly, I looked at the map and the two corners have more than 5 mexes (about 9-10 last I checked) which are NOT contested (equidistant to opposing team spawns).
I am glad you raised this point, though, as quite a bit of people have begun making requests that maps have a certain number of "safe" mexes on 1500+, would like your input if possible:
That is a document which will be used to help guide map-makers be aware of different aspects of maps, and ultimately tie into how we accept submissions for the pool.
I opted to use Verdanis (as have others) because we really DO NOT have much to choose from, so unless we get some up to date desires by a bunch of people I do not see why it cannot be used at all; agreed it needs to go into the lowest bracket as it really is just a "gun rush in middle" meta, which is pretty lame. Even Klutz - the author - agreed it is not the best.
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@xayo Yep, it will be taken out. the author messaged me saying it was fixed - a trustworthy guy, too - and it appears nothing was done.
I have replaced this with Adaptive Kusoge.
I had a conversation with him regarding its terrain earlier this year, figured it was handled.
I misunderstood him in that he did not perform work, sorry about this.
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@crusher12321 said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:
the entire map pool is so shit.... map pool from last season was way better...
the new maps are all small... or big and empty..... feel like every game end in 10 minutes... just a trash pool.and never get maps from pool side 2... so why they are there ?
First of all, I have been in multiple games with you over the past months, and each time you always seem to be upset by the maps the majority of the time, so sorry but you are not giving me much to go on other than showing general disdain.
If you would like to see some changes please write something quantifiable or proved-out like the Xayo and Farms did above.
What maps did you like in the previous pool and what do you not like in the current one? And why? Is it just taste in the maps or is there something you can explain as to why they should not be used?
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@TheWheelie , just checked and it is in the lowest-tiers possible. Per recent findings, I must sadly inform you that the pool matchmaking algorithm is not working as intended.
See here:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5344/questionable-matchmaker-behaviour
And this:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5405/better-tmm-map-pool-selection-algorithm
I will use this post as reasoning to help justify Blodir's suggestion is implemented by the devs.
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Planet Shmal - FAF version
Top left air player has 1300 reclaim, bottom right air player has 2400 reclaim. I thought FaF versions of maps are there to avoid such issues!
See the total reclaim on screen counter in top left of the images:
https://i.imgur.com/6PeiGAK.png
https://i.imgur.com/iEJjLep.jpeg -
@xayo said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:
Planet Shmal - FAF version
Top left air player has 1300 reclaim, bottom right air player has 2400 reclaim. I thought FaF versions of maps are there to avoid such issues!
See the total reclaim on screen counter in top left of the images:
https://i.imgur.com/6PeiGAK.png
https://i.imgur.com/iEJjLep.jpegThe "-FAF Version" was coined by svenni_badbwoi who originally set out to fix legacy content such as GPG maps and those created with old, map-editing tools which did not have symmetry tools.
In the wake of a lack of content that works properly for the TMM system, we asked for blanket permission to update maps for issues such as spawn locations and/or sever, technical issues, should the original author no longer be available.
This is a tough case where the map's design intent is at play so it will need to be removed and discussed.
Thank you for pointing it out: the map will be removed and replaced with another for now.
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I'm not going to lie there are several maps in the map pool that are making me seriously consider playing custom mapgen lobbies again or justgoing back to playing a different game. 10x10 all acu mid gunrush maps mostly. I haven't played all the maps (at least recently) so I won't comment on those, don't mistake their exclusion for them being fine.
Here's my tier list (subject to change):
A Seton's, Mapgen 15km 14
B Syrtis Assault, Ndera, Lena River, Saskiya, Metir
C Mapgen 20km 16, Mapgen 17.5km 12, Monument Valley
D Salembay, Falcon Stone River, Crateria, Canis River, Sin
F Primus alpha mini, The Bermuda Locket, Funeral Plains, Hrungdaks Canyon, Moon, Verdanis, Corona, Mars Mangala Fossa
Not played: miracle, adaptive zone 6, schmal, lost atoll, skadi, virmireA-C are fine, D is very questionable and F makes me want to leave when I get it.
Note that the mapgens are so low because of the settings, if the default settings had maxed out mex slider and otherwise random settings (like they are usually in customs) I'd probably put 15x to S tier, 17.5x to A or B tier and 20x to C tier. 12.5x, 13.75, 16.25 would also all be fine mapgen sizes provided that u give a lot of mex. It's also just hard to put them into tier list since sometimes u maps with 4 mex per base and other times you get sick 10/10 gems.
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funeral plains under salembay, the audacity
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@blodir said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:
I'm not going to lie there are several maps in the map pool that are making me seriously consider playing custom mapgen lobbies again or justgoing back to playing a different game. 10x10 all acu mid gunrush maps mostly. I haven't played all the maps (at least recently) so I won't comment on those, don't mistake their exclusion for them being fine.
Here's my tier list (subject to change):
A Seton's, Mapgen 15km 14
B Syrtis Assault, Ndera, Lena River, Saskiya, Metir
C Mapgen 20km 16, Mapgen 17.5km 12, Monument Valley
D Salembay, Falcon Stone River, Crateria, Canis River, Sin
F Primus alpha mini, The Bermuda Locket, Funeral Plains, Hrungdaks Canyon, Moon, Verdanis, Corona, Mars Mangala Fossa
Not played: miracle, adaptive zone 6, schmal, lost atoll, skadi, virmireA-C are fine, D is very questionable and F makes me want to leave when I get it.
Note that the mapgens are so low because of the settings, if the default settings had maxed out mex slider and otherwise random settings (like they are usually in customs) I'd probably put 15x to S tier, 17.5x to A or B tier and 20x to C tier. 12.5x, 13.75, 16.25 would also all be fine mapgen sizes provided that u give a lot of mex. It's also just hard to put them into tier list since sometimes u maps with 4 mex per base and other times you get sick 10/10 gems.
Could you actually provide some feedback for the maps aside your tier list which is basically just your personal feelings.
What is the metric? It sounds like you are mostly dissatisfied because of the mex count.
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I don't see canis, falcon, salem, sin, funeral plains, or corona as gun mid maps tbh. Canis/Falcon such a thing only works against omega greed eco especially since water stops tanks/arty aside from Aeon/Phim combo. Salembay is t2 air map. Sin any monkeypush is thwarted by air. Corona is just a question of teamplay, you can lose mid and be fine so long as your ally actually went mid to support with his ACU.
You got more of a case for Syrtis Assault being gun ACU mid map than any of the ones I listed above, frankly.
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@morax said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:
Could you actually provide some feedback for the maps aside your tier list which is basically just your personal feelings.
What is the metric? It sounds like you are mostly dissatisfied because of the mex count.
The question is worded in a bit of an confusing way. Of course my tier list is based on my personal feelings. What else would it be based on? The metric is my estimated satisfaction with getting the map on tmm. I can give a few pointers, but to go into detail would entail writing an entire dissertation on the map pool.
Let's start with the following: Primus Alfa, Hrungdaks, Verdanis, Moon, Mars Mangala. These are the most obvious examples of gunrush maps. Can you imagine playing on Primus Alfa and having your opponent roll Aeon and rush double gun followed by a leisurely stroll into your base? There is literally nothing you can do about that if played correctly and I'm not exaggerating. In reality you have to just rely on your opponent playing bad, which is fortunately very reliable indeed. Of course you could hope for you teammates to organize a rescue mission (snipe), were they not also getting pushed in by gun acus of their own opponents.
This kind of gameplay follows from several factors: balance (gun is really really really strong), rush distance between players, position of reclaim (or mex) and the amount of mexes.
If there's a lot of contested mex/reclaim that immediately forces a gun acu abuse situation, even in a 20x20 where players have to transport to the front or walk long distances you'll still see that strategy being extremely effective (read game winning) in a proxy war. If both players don't engage in gun abuse over the middle then the one that does gets a game winning advantage for free.
And btw, I want to give a special mention to Funeral Plains where gunrush is not necessarily enforced, but instead all ACUs have to go naked into the middle of the map to grab reclaim, which often ends up in someone (or all) dying since one player in one team didn't get the memo and went to their own side with their ACU while the others get blasted by 4 ACUs in the middle. Or maybe the players are just mean spirited and want to force a draw. There's no way to avoid that without giving up middle reclaim (large advantage).
Okay back to guns, how does mex count affect gun ACU gameplay? Well if you have a lot of mexes the relative strength of the gun acu is weakened as you can't buy more of them no matter how much mass you have. At 0mex the ACU is 100% of the strength of your army, as you go up in mex count (and increase production) that percentage steadily decreases until eventually in exp stage the strength of the ACU is close to 0% of the strength of your army. The more mex/reclaim each player is given the faster the ACU loses value. Eg. in the previous Primus Alfa example if each player had 20 starting mexes, one could easily defend a double gun push with t2 PD and quickly follow that up with sniper bots.
I want to note that the above is not the only reason that "high" mex/reclaim count is desirable. The general feeling that I get (and I assume many other higher level players also feel this given their preferences) is that a low amount of mass results in a game that is slow, boring and simple. The more mass there is on the map, the faster the game will progress through all tech stages and the faster a relatively even game will ultimately end (as the increased volatility of game ender stage guarantees the game to end once you finally reach it). Lots of maps in the pool have indeed too few mex for my tastes, for instance (excluding the previously mentioned maps, all of which have this issue too): Bermuda, Funeral Plains, Corona, Falcon Stone River, Crateria, Canis River, Monument Valley. Even the mapgens have too few as I mentioned in the last post.
@FtXCommando I don't mind Syrtis Assault as much - even though it is undoubtedly a gunrush monke spam map as you said - because there's a relatively large amount of mass (refer to previous point about mass vs gun acu as well as mass being increasing complexity, hastening the pacing, etc.)
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I totally agree with Blodir and the points he made. But I also want to stress, that this is only a problem at the highest levels of play. Somewhere between 1800+ and 2k+ is where the mentioned maps become quite boring by forcing players into a single viable strategy, and most games being decided 6 minutes in.
I think the vast majority of this feedback is completely irrelevant for lobbies at or below 1600 average rating. At that level, the ability of players to see the optimal strategy for a map, and to punish opponents that didn't go with that strategy becomes so bad that a more diverse range of strategies is possible. I think a great example here is the map adaptive millenium. ~1200 avg rating custom lobbies seem to be an absolute blast on that map, but once you move to higher avg ratings the pool of viable strategies shrinks quickly.
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Hello, I'm making the 4v4 map pool for february.Unfortunately the change from map pool selection from lowest to average rating will probably not make it by the start of february so the pool is designed for the current system.
I'd like to hear any feedback / map suggestions / etc. that you might have. Highlighted in pool are the maps that are carried over from the last pool.
Note that this map pool is not final and is subject to changes.
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Wheres my setons!?
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