cybran t3 navy
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I play nothing but UEF. I can tell you that BCs do not trade well with any BS in the game. They have half the hp with less range, they will be killed and result in a snowball naval loss.
UEF BC -> kill anything not a BS
UEF BS -> kill enemy BS -
@lorem_ipsum said in cybran t3 navy:
@Haachamachama i see the frigates and see how they scale since theyre low hp dosent matter when they get overkilled anyway but having more bs is hardly an advantage when the opponent has battlecruiser ontop of his bs and those things have almost double the dps of any bs are cheaper and the low hp can be offset by shieldboats and the low range of em gets kinda offset by beeing even faster then the omen
Just no. You have many 2k+ players here experts in navy telling you how it really is, don't dig deeper now
Saying you'd rather have the 7k mass costing unit with 25k hp and shorter range, than the 8k mass costing unit with longer range and almost 20k HP more???
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@ftxcommando @Haachamachama i now tested battlecuiser(bc from now on) with 1 shieldboat, under the conditions that the bc with the shieldboat have to close in to a broadside position bs, the bc only closes in enougth to use its main weapons, not its torpedos(20dps) both units were unmicroed aside from stopping the shieldboat from hiding behind the bc, plays out as follows: when the battleship does not kill the shieldboat first it blinks up a second time makeing the bc win any matchup. when the battleship targets the shieldboat first the results are as follows: cybran bs loses 1.6k hp left on bc(8k mass bs vs 8.3k of bc and shieldboat), aoen bs won 3.3k hp left (9k mass vs 8.3k), seraphim bs won 2.8k hp left [in this test a volley of the bs hit both the bc and the shieldboat but i didnt wanna redo, it just shows how close this is](9k mass vs 8.3k), uef bs wins 4.8k hp left (10k mass vs 8.3k).
this test is setup in a way to give the bs every feasible advantage in a direct comparison(full dps from the start, range advantage and even cost advantage aside from cybran), ontop of that any micro will benefit the bc since its guns cant miss while its realistic that the faster smaller bc can doge some projectiles since all the bs have relatively slow ones. make of this info as you will but to say that bc+shieldboat get beat consistently by any bs is straigth up not true.edit: anyone is free to repeat this test and counter my results but your "experience" is more biased then any test i can make
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I mean the results of a bunch of 2ks playing matters more than sandboxing imo
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@lorem_ipsum So the Cybran bs lost vs a greater mass force with zero micro? This isn’t the argument you think it is, especially since once the bs is in range you kite back with it getting a lot of free shots before the faster bc catches up. Not to mention you’d use frigs as meat shields in practice anyway, and they’d kill the shield boats. Or t2 subs will kill the shield boats.
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@spikeynoob didnt say it doesn't not matter, i said it is more biased since experience is litterally bias, so i implore you, just test it out in your games and tell me again that using this to your advantage wont work out for you. i have watched replays and seen it work out for players that is why im making this case.
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@exselsior you can also assume that one player has more eco and a second shieldboat or more frigates, realism is not the point of a modeled test, it is to isolate a interaction. also to actually answer your criticism: a cybran frigate is 250 mass and gets killed before it can fire on anything by the bc before the bc cant fire on the bs meaning it will litterally not have an impact in this comp
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So, when do we get the down vote button back?
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@lorem_ipsum wait so why does the bs not get a stealth boat? With that the bs can easily just micro around the bc killing it without any damage taken.
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@randomwheelchair hey so far ive gotten, "my experience is worth more then your math or tests", "your opinion is invalid", and didnt get a single replay, test or video to disprove my claims so im kinda chilling...
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@Exselsior we should do a test later using more realistic conditions. Like a mass for mass fight between 2 factions with t3 navy.
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@spikeynoob pls post replay when done
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Sorry dude, I'm not gonna bother entertaining you. I just wanna down vote your posts for being utterly delusional.
Just heed advice of other players and drop it. -
@lorem_ipsum essentially i could say aeon t1 needs a buff as a mantis vs a aurora in a close range 1v1 with no micro always goes the way of the mantis. When in reality that aurora can crush if microed and used in favorable situations.
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If you think I meant a single frig then I don’t really know what to tell you. By your logic the valiant (t2 uef destro) is also op because it beats other destros 1v1 with no micro. Spitballing here, but I feel that a decent typical late game cybran navy comp has at least 20+ frigs for every bs and that can’t be ignored when considering bs balance.
@SpikeyNoob im down, sounds like good practice to try to win with mass controlled navies actually
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@randomwheelchair so i should stop trying to proving that i have a point and just do what everyone else does yeah ?
so far im really enjoying this post because it has been kept fairly objective and the worst outcome is for me to learn navicomposition, but thanks for calling me delusional and adding nothing to the conversation.
@Exselsior you referenced my previous test for bc vs bs "So the Cybran bs lost vs a greater mass force with zero micro?" the mass difference was 300mass the frigate was the only cybran naval unit fitting into that limitation and i made the point that a frigate wont matter. the test is exactly, that a test for a direct comparison, in reality yes there is alot more going on but as @FtXCommando said before "UEF BC -> kill anything not a BS" the bc will perform better vs other naval units then any bs (aside from subs where one can say the galaxys more hp with same dps will be more effective but using any of those units vs subs is suboptimal anyway) -
I’m talking in practice rather than number crunching. Myself and other people have brought up other examples of why contrived tests like this only mean so much. You had to give the bc a shield boat to win without micro. Give the galaxy a t3 sonar and it’ll crush while taking literally zero damage for a bit more mass if nothing is being micro’d and there’s no scout stream.
No one is arguing that the Galaxy isn’t the weakest BS of them all. It is. No one has an issue with that. The burden of proof that it’s too weak in the grand scheme of naval balance is on you, it’s not on us to prove that it’s not as weak as you’re presenting. 1v1s with the galaxy vs whatever navy unit you want prove nothing other than the fact the galaxy is the cheapest and therefore weakest of the bs, and not that there’s actually a balance issue.
I forgot to get a replay last night because I got distracted by starting some tourney prep for fun on the chance I actually get picked, but tonight if I’ve got some time I’ll find a replay or two. Unfortunately there’s not a whole lot of high level setons these days but I’m sure I can dig up something.
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@exselsior i kinda got proof by watching about 30 replays of cybran navy and coming to the conclusion that they dont win navy once both sides have a t3 hq. i was asking before for a replay showing that cybrans winning t3 navy and got one where other factors impacted the scenario so much that it cant be used as an example.(a good example would be about even eco, both sides hitting t3 navy at similar times, 1 vs 1 navy, not too significant involvment by an air player for either side)
i agree that an isolated test is not realistic in the grand sceme but can be an indicator or reason for further testing or even attempts to apply the results to real games and build more likely scenarios as a result.
one of the reasons i really wanna see the replay that spikey offered to produce
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I get home in a few hours, if ex is around ill try to 1v1 him with equal mass navy. Then ill send replay.
