cybran t3 navy
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@lorem_ipsum So the Cybran bs lost vs a greater mass force with zero micro? This isn’t the argument you think it is, especially since once the bs is in range you kite back with it getting a lot of free shots before the faster bc catches up. Not to mention you’d use frigs as meat shields in practice anyway, and they’d kill the shield boats. Or t2 subs will kill the shield boats.
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@spikeynoob didnt say it doesn't not matter, i said it is more biased since experience is litterally bias, so i implore you, just test it out in your games and tell me again that using this to your advantage wont work out for you. i have watched replays and seen it work out for players that is why im making this case.
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@exselsior you can also assume that one player has more eco and a second shieldboat or more frigates, realism is not the point of a modeled test, it is to isolate a interaction. also to actually answer your criticism: a cybran frigate is 250 mass and gets killed before it can fire on anything by the bc before the bc cant fire on the bs meaning it will litterally not have an impact in this comp
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So, when do we get the down vote button back?
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@lorem_ipsum wait so why does the bs not get a stealth boat? With that the bs can easily just micro around the bc killing it without any damage taken.
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@randomwheelchair hey so far ive gotten, "my experience is worth more then your math or tests", "your opinion is invalid", and didnt get a single replay, test or video to disprove my claims so im kinda chilling...
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@Exselsior we should do a test later using more realistic conditions. Like a mass for mass fight between 2 factions with t3 navy.
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@spikeynoob pls post replay when done
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Sorry dude, I'm not gonna bother entertaining you. I just wanna down vote your posts for being utterly delusional.
Just heed advice of other players and drop it. -
@lorem_ipsum essentially i could say aeon t1 needs a buff as a mantis vs a aurora in a close range 1v1 with no micro always goes the way of the mantis. When in reality that aurora can crush if microed and used in favorable situations.
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If you think I meant a single frig then I don’t really know what to tell you. By your logic the valiant (t2 uef destro) is also op because it beats other destros 1v1 with no micro. Spitballing here, but I feel that a decent typical late game cybran navy comp has at least 20+ frigs for every bs and that can’t be ignored when considering bs balance.
@SpikeyNoob im down, sounds like good practice to try to win with mass controlled navies actually
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@randomwheelchair so i should stop trying to proving that i have a point and just do what everyone else does yeah ?
so far im really enjoying this post because it has been kept fairly objective and the worst outcome is for me to learn navicomposition, but thanks for calling me delusional and adding nothing to the conversation.
@Exselsior you referenced my previous test for bc vs bs "So the Cybran bs lost vs a greater mass force with zero micro?" the mass difference was 300mass the frigate was the only cybran naval unit fitting into that limitation and i made the point that a frigate wont matter. the test is exactly, that a test for a direct comparison, in reality yes there is alot more going on but as @FtXCommando said before "UEF BC -> kill anything not a BS" the bc will perform better vs other naval units then any bs (aside from subs where one can say the galaxys more hp with same dps will be more effective but using any of those units vs subs is suboptimal anyway) -
I’m talking in practice rather than number crunching. Myself and other people have brought up other examples of why contrived tests like this only mean so much. You had to give the bc a shield boat to win without micro. Give the galaxy a t3 sonar and it’ll crush while taking literally zero damage for a bit more mass if nothing is being micro’d and there’s no scout stream.
No one is arguing that the Galaxy isn’t the weakest BS of them all. It is. No one has an issue with that. The burden of proof that it’s too weak in the grand scheme of naval balance is on you, it’s not on us to prove that it’s not as weak as you’re presenting. 1v1s with the galaxy vs whatever navy unit you want prove nothing other than the fact the galaxy is the cheapest and therefore weakest of the bs, and not that there’s actually a balance issue.
I forgot to get a replay last night because I got distracted by starting some tourney prep for fun on the chance I actually get picked, but tonight if I’ve got some time I’ll find a replay or two. Unfortunately there’s not a whole lot of high level setons these days but I’m sure I can dig up something.
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@exselsior i kinda got proof by watching about 30 replays of cybran navy and coming to the conclusion that they dont win navy once both sides have a t3 hq. i was asking before for a replay showing that cybrans winning t3 navy and got one where other factors impacted the scenario so much that it cant be used as an example.(a good example would be about even eco, both sides hitting t3 navy at similar times, 1 vs 1 navy, not too significant involvment by an air player for either side)
i agree that an isolated test is not realistic in the grand sceme but can be an indicator or reason for further testing or even attempts to apply the results to real games and build more likely scenarios as a result.
one of the reasons i really wanna see the replay that spikey offered to produce
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I get home in a few hours, if ex is around ill try to 1v1 him with equal mass navy. Then ill send replay.
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just to make it clear, the point of this forum is you convincing the balanceteam, not we teaching you how to play the game. if you want to learn how to play the game, go in that part of the forum/discord.
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Personally I find Cybran navy to be one of the best in general. Bs is cheapest, so normal that weaker than others. But I find most impressive the logic, calm and work behind comments of @Lorem_Ipsum . I am only young player myself, but open for testgames or discussion.
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Find games where Haachamachama is playing Cybran navy on Seton’s. Other top players would be people like Nexus and Tagada but they don’t play anywhere near as much setons, at least recently. You’re never going to find an equal mass scenario, I don’t think that really exists in actual games. Best case it starts sorta equal until one side gets more reclaim than the other, and even that idk.
Will also hopefully create the replay tonight depending on when I’m back from work, that should be interesting
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You’d think that the failure of 20th century command economies would have showcased the danger of “my experiments run contrary to natural results, it is obviously the natural results at fault” but, guess not.
Rule of thumb is that if your experiment doesn’t match popular wisdom, especially in complex things like an rts where tons of variables exist to account for, it’s because of externalities you disregarded for the sake of making your experiment easier.
Case in point:
I sandbox mass equivalent ints vs swift winds and ints win. This means that swift winds are useless units and need to be buffed. They can’t beat the unit they are intended to replace in a fair fight.Except they don’t because things like speed, engagement control, snowball dps loss, factory scale to match mass investment, etc factor into discussing units. Anyone would call you nuts for suggesting a buff to swift winds.
You’re free to get to 1800 crushing people with battlecruisers when you’re facing battleships, but there’s a reason this isn’t meta. Battleships scale significantly better and bc + shield combo very quickly has depreciating returns.
You can say “experience is irrelevant” but it isn’t. Any reasonable study accounts for discrepancies between experimental conditions and natural conditions and how these can lead to different things being efficient. There is no replay of someone high level putting BCs against BS because it sucks, straight up. Even your test is weird and has this shield boat that doesn’t get sniped + doesn’t account for how bc needs to get in range of bs frigates which can keep pushing the bc away while the BS does free damage.
I don’t care about showing a replay because it’s just shit you see in any t3 navy game. Sentons/Metir/Lena River/whatever, waste of time to go prove it. Go climb 1000 rating disregarding BS and showcase yourself how you found the new meta.
