Make the tactical missile from the t3 submarines more usefull
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Hi everyone,
Currently, I feel like t3 submarines tactical missile are pretty useless (I exclude the specific seraphim sub from the discussion). They are able to launch nuke which is usefull but their tml is rarely of any use in the game as it is too weak compared to the unit cost.
In comparison the t3 battleship from the seraphim can launch nukes but is also very powerful.
I was wondering if it wouldn't be more interesting to add some "functionality" to those t3 subs.
It could be done for instance by increasing the strength of the tactical missile (making it comparable to a building base one). Maybe the rate at which they are launched should then be decreased to compensate.
It could also be done by increasing the rate at which tactical missile are launched, or making burst launches.
A last idea would be to make t3 subs more effective against navy.
What do you think?
Thanks a lot.
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The Cybran Plan B's tactical missile is super strong in terms of damage and it splits just like all Cybran missiles, such that even when split into 3 by a TMD the sub-missiles can still wipe out mexes with ease. It has a low ROF that often wastes DPS due to overkill and slow travel time, but I would say the range makes up for it.
However, the massive cost of the Plan B means you can't really build it for that purpose alone.
IDK how lackluster the other nuke subs are in terms of side features because I never play other factions on navy.
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@zeldafanboy That's exactly my point. It is not that their tactical missiles are useless in themselves, but given how much it costs to build a t3 subs it makes no point of building them for this purpose.
This is why I believe it would be nice to give them more utility for their tactical missile (otherwise it would be the same to remove their tactical missile launcher at all)
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No, they're used specifically for nukes once navy is either won or you're sure it's going to be won. That's their niche role and they're very good at that role when used correctly.
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I don't see it contradictory with what I suggest. They could keep having this role while giving them a tactical role as well. It makes sense to let them be strategic and tactical missile launcher (while the tactical part is currently useless for all practical purpose). If their only role is to launch nuke then it would be better to simply remove their tactical missile ability.
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The tac missile ability is strong though as @Zeldafanboy pointed out. Very useful for sniping smds when people aren't expecting it. You'd be throwing off balance to either buff that ability or remove it and without a good reason. It's a very long range submerged missile ship with both tactical and nuclear missiles. Imo it makes sense as a unit and has a role to play in the game as is, to make any changes would take a cost rework as well and would potentially make it less viable at what it does.
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Having the ability to use tac missiles, or not use them (put it on hold fire) adds complexity to the game. You can be sneaky with your subs, or you can use them for firepower. I like having that option. People already rarely get to use nuke subs outside of late-game setons. So they might as well be interesting.
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Well I see that you are not convinced ^^
I felt like their tml ability is very weak for a t3 unit and should be boosted appropriately but if I am the only one thinking this, it is life
Thanks!
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it’s 10k mass, they would need like 3x or 4x as strong tmls as a cruiser to even consider being viable for their tml. You can block them with 10% of the equivalent mass invested in tmd or shields.
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I suggested a long time ago (probably on the old forums) to make the tac missle on the t3 sub like an ACU tac missle. So one strong manual launched missle, instead of many auto launched weak missiles who miss most of the time because of target selection.
If you have a couple you can sneaky kill things from under water.
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With credits to @Emperor_Penguin :
I think the submarine is fine where it is: it has a clear role and it is quite good at it.
The suggestion from @H-master needs work: the ACU tactical missiles share the same button with strategic missiles. Internally I think they also share some code state. They would also both cost resources, I'm not sure how that works on one unit. I can also see myself mess that up and launch a nuke on accident , the irony if that happens.
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Yeah so my proposition was not necessarily to make the t3 subs really more powerful (hence the title is misleading, I just edited it to correct it) but to make the tactical missile they launch more "inside" of the gameplay.
For instance making the subs shooting in burst rather than 1 missile every x seconds like they do actually (to surprise an opponent). Or reducing the rate of launch but making missile more powerful in order to "snipe" stuff. By doing this trick maybe the DPS would be lowered in the end for balance purpose (it could be one possibility), but they will have some usefulness within the gameplay (which they lack now). I also like the idea from @H-master (it can be another alternative if it is technically possible).
The reason of all this is because I honestly never saw in any game those missiles being useful for anything (and I am a regular player since years, frequently playing navy). I think such proposition could really enrich the gameplay without making the unit too powerful if the changes are appropriately made.
This is a last attempt to give some pros to this feature ^^
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The rare times I build t3 subs I typically turn off the TML because I dont want it to give away the position of the unit and/or give away the fact that I have t3 subs in the water....I try to use them only for surprise nuke attacks but thats just me and I suck at navy.
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@LightBearer I agree with you. I currently do the same (and most player do this as well). This is because the tml are not worth it, people only use t3 sub for nukes. I think that a "sniping" tml option as suggested by H-master would be great to give the subs more strategic purpose. Like one powerful tml that can launched on rare intervals.
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Is it me, or it feels like Seraphim battleships don't pay for their nuke launchers? Like they are balanced with other battleships in this way (if we ignore nukes). Maybe tactical subs should also not pay for their nuke launchers and have more useful tacticals.
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Also, why are naval nukes more expensive than land nukes if they are weaker? This discourages their use.
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Nukesub tmls are stronger than you think because of the massive range they have. Its not uncommon to have 5k mass killed just from the tmls (if you havent disabled them to hide your subs) and for a secondary feature thats already quite powerfull.
@melanol said in Make the tactical missile from the t3 submarines more usefull:
Also, why are naval nukes more expensive than land nukes if they are weaker? This discourages their use.
They arent
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@thewheelie Well on the more than thousands game I played (very frequently on naval map), I may have seen their tml be usefull maybe less than 5 times (and I believe I am pretty generous on those five times, clearly I have no memory of them doing relevant damages to a base).
Maybe I am a very particular case (even though I don't think so), but I am a bit surprized by your statement of their usefulness.
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Maybe reduce the cost of the sub and increase the price of the nuke?
So getting a nuke on a sub would cost the same amount but the subs would be a lot cheaper. -
@chenbro101 said in Make the tactical missile from the t3 submarines more usefull:
Maybe reduce the cost of the sub and increase the price of the nuke?
So getting a nuke on a sub would cost the same amount but the subs would be a lot cheaper.Doesn't work like that, the first one would have been the same cost but every other nuke build would cost more. This would be nothing but a blatant nerf.