Why would you have left FAF?

[Mylaur]

@arma473 said in Why would you have left FAF?:

@mylaur said in Why would you have left FAF?:

@hurtmuch If people were trying to learn how to play this niche game then wouldn't people help each other more? But no its completely the opposite, a gatekeeping community. Plus everything is hard to learn and there's a very low amount of guides (it gets better but still).

It seems like we have more trainers than students. Or at least, we have more training capacity than there is demand for training (because obviously a trainer can teach more than 1 person at a time).

If you're willing to accept training from people under 1500 rating, there's essentially an unlimited amount of 1-on-1 training available to basically everyone. I know I have no backlog in terms of replays people have asked me to review. Literally you can ask me to review a replay and I can go into voice with you and talk about what I'm seeing, or I can just watch it, take notes, and send you 5-10 sentences of my analysis of what you could do better. It takes people like 3 minutes to submit a request AND read my feedback once I send it, and I do that for free, and I only get about 0-1 people per month asking me to review a few of their replays.

I don't think we're even talking about higher-rated people (like 1200+ at ladder or 1400+ at global) but my impression is that those people can always find some instruction from higher-rated players whenever they want it. (And of course people at any rating can pay Jagged for lessons)

A lot of what people perceive as "gatekeeping" is unwanted advice, which is basically unwanted training.

Training really does work as a good way to grow in skill. But the community over-estimates how much people actually want to participate in training.

This is a good point. I've submitted one replay or two and gotten advice from it. The issue is that it's an active way of learning. Most players want to play the game passively and improve at least on the basics. But basics aren't taught in game, only out of the game and you have to spent effort to do it so. I had to got out of my way to find those guides.

The gatekeeping is due to in game players flaming you, calling beginners noobs, which yes, they are beginners... The game is just not beginner friendly and many others have pointed it out so in so many ways.

In other strategy games the campaign serves as a good cushion for getting your basics off. We all know the campaign is cool but doesn't look like a standard game at all which is fine.
The idea of individual challenge maps centered around a theme sounds like a brilliant idea and should severs to fill that niche and custom campaigns have already being done plenty, so it's entirely feasible.
Tutorials are different because they're watch and copy, and there's so few of them, it doesn't make you interact with the game in a simulated manner (and it's mostly about build orders). As some have pointed out, besides the early game, there's a lack of tutorials for the mid game and late game. The transitions between phases are also important too, and some team game tutorials would be great (2v2, 4v4...).

New players are mostly solo players that want to enjoy the game passively, challenges would be a good way to play the game while improving while having fun.

I realize that after such a long time, finally the written guides are given mention on the front page. Still putting them in the tutorials tab would also make it easier to access them.

[maudlin27]

Tbh in any RTS game I've played, I can breeze through the campaign on hardest difficulty, then try a multiplayer match and get absolutely crushed (and I also expect to be). I don't think FAF is anything different in this regards - there's an established meta (since it's not a brand new game) and that meta is different to how you can win in the campaign.

Challenge maps/improved tutorials would still help, but it requires someone to do it (although improving the tutorials section of the client to include links to the various guides I'd like to think would be an 'easy win').

[Jip]

@mylaur

The idea of challenges has been mentioned quite a few times in this topic. If you're able to program or not - be the first to make one. You can ask for help in the Discord.

[Caliber]

Challenges would be an awsome idea if someone with the skill set was willing to put the time in, it could start off with some simple things like the fastest time to build 100 tanks or fastest time to claim every mex on a 40k map to funny things like who can best place a nuke on a moving target/acu from 20km away and to hard stuff like taking down a large heavily fortified base.

[Mylaur]

@maudlin27 I don't know, playing through the campaign in Wings of Liberty Starcraft 2 got me gold I in Starcraft 2 which isn't bad by any means (not bronze level). I just had some working macro and a basic build order strategy, which is already more than what I'm doing in FAF.

[Teralitha]

I would say its the community itself that is somewhat unfriendly to new players, that would cause them to leave.

[jcvjcvjcvjcv]

When does one stop being new and start being "older"?

I have left for a year. Just completely had it with the simspeed lag, quitters, disconnects and FAF's appeasement to laggers.

Also, when starting out this game is really a pain. You get kicked for too low rating, too few games, 'being gray', 'you are smurf' etc. etc. The few games that remain tend to be modded and full of noobs... playing a modded game while not even understanding the base game. And the horrible lag. I can't remember any other multiplayer game that tolerates this amount of lag.

I've had friends that used to be 1100 rated that now dropped below 1k. Every game we play they complain they can't get in 'any nice game' because '1k+' is also a thing.

Oh, and the lobby SIM. It takes forever to fill up a lobby. This results in self-reinforcing circle with a few maps being played more and more because everything else 'will take too long'. The same problem exists with older shooter games too btw.

@tatsu said in Why would you have left FAF?:

it's called "All Welcome (Noobs and Grays too)!...

Yeah, and laggers too probably?

[Khal]

Other than that FAF is very difficult to learn and tutoring will definitely help.

I would say that new players run into the below issues.

1- Specific map dominant strategies/dominant groups of players.
regular players in FAF usually stick to specific maps and continue to play them over and over again versus the same players which means that this group of players will be aware of tactics that help dominate the game and crush the opponent instantly. But this is not the issue.
The issue lies in the fact that these players will be extremely underrated in these maps. a player who plays Gap of Rohan over and over again and is rated 800 would definitely crush an unfamiliar with the map player who is 1100. Imagine what is the situation for a new player, he/she would continue to get crushed by players equal to them or lower which will drain their energy and drive them away.

2-Broken rating system:
I don't think that FAF rating system reflects players' true level. I remember some players who were 1600 and then the next week suddenly they are 1100. which means the game gets balanced accordingly and they usually crush their opponent quickly.

3- FAF balancing units towards favoring pros' play style.
AIR is OP, rushing com upgrades is OP. early raids is OP.
I used to play supcom the original version and after moving to faf, I noticed that the way things are balanced is forcing you to play with a certain style.

4- Smurfing Culture. XD
I play FAF like four times a month and I don't know any group to play with and I must say that when you log in to random games you keep getting baited into games with smurfs. although this is not a big issue.

5- Lack of low-ranking players to play with. if you are below 1000, good luck finding a game. with people who are similar to your level.

all of the above leads to frustrating the new players and driving them away and I personally would have left FAF if not for some pros who helped me.

I think solving these issues would be quite the challenge. so good luck.

Also, I would like to share some suggestions that might help per issue. please take them with a grain of salt as I have a limited point of view since I don't play that often.

1 & 2-tweak the rating system.
3- make rushing things harder.
4- the gray ranking system is enough for this issue to be solved.
5- engaging new players and telling them how to find similar ranking opponents & teammates.

[tatsu]

@KhaldounN
it's weird that you get that impression that the majority is over 1000 ...well weird but understandable.

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/36

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/27

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/21

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/16

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/8

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/7

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/705/faf-statistics-megathread/6

as you can see the majority of players are in the < 1000 range

I would advise perseverance, though, as more often then not it just seems like you can't get a game but shoving the door open without asking reveals that you totally can. And dont let a certain map's preference influence what you want to play.

we've also found that persisting in hosting new maps, (even randomly generated ones that have literally never been played before) yields results. It's only by multiplying this behavior of being willing to host and join "less frequent" maps among lower-rated players that lower rated players will be able to free themselves from the shackles of those over-prominent maps.

I do agree with what you've said in the big lines.

[Zeldafanboy]

The vast majority (80%) of everything wrong with FAF as a social multiplayer experience is bad map culture and lobby sim. The other 19% has to do with teammates who don't communicate, speak in another language, or are toxic. The final 1% is disconnects, lag, and performance issues in the late game but there's not much you can do about that.

I find myself enjoying ladder far more than team games recently, but the latter is often dead...

[CheeseBerry]

@tatsu
Well the distribution of players is not the same as the distribution of games played, right? Do we have some statistics on the latter?

[Utopian]

If I were to leave FAF (not a new player, but still low rated), it would be because of FUCKING GAP. I hate Gap with a passion, but it seems 98% of games for lower rated players will be on Gap. I don't want to play Gap. I don't give a fuck about Gap. Stop hosting Gap, and only Gap. And before you say it, yes, I try hosting for myself, but no one will join, because people only ever play Gap, because it's easy, requires almost no strategy, and is a ridiculously streamlined version of FA.

[Keene]

To many gap/astro maps seems to be a recurring answer in this thread. I wonder if de-ranking all gap/astro maps would ultimately be a positive and long term gain for FAF. It would piss a lot of people off and accusations of moderator/admin overreach but it would probably be better for all. A healthier ladder/team matchmaker community would probably form out of it, especially with the upcoming 3v3 and 4v4 ladder.

[Utopian]

@keene I hope they do something about it. Every time I log onto FAF and see all the fucking astro/gap games, I wanna die.

[biass]

@keene said in Why would you have left FAF?:

To many gap/astro maps seems to be a recurring answer in this thread. I wonder if de-ranking all gap/astro maps would ultimately be a positive and long term gain for FAF.

It’s not a feasible solution with our current map distribution method. (Vault rules like that are stupid easy to evade)

That aside, if we took away something you enjoyed, and asked you to instead do something you fundamentally didn’t want to do; would you do it or would you go and play something else?

I’m not accusing anyone in this thread, but there have been countless people who claim “they would play X other thing if only…” and for a lot of them, they’re never going to have the confidence to do so. There are probably a lot more gap/astro slaves than you think exist, it’s just that a lot of them are in the closet.

[Khal]

@tatsu I find the charts you referenced very interesting and at the same time surprising given my personal experience. .. I am curious to investigate deeper..how can I get my hands on the games data?

[MajorTrouble]

@khaldounn there is an api for the game, I know of thread around here that uses this to pull data on players such as game stats

how you would go about using the API yourself, I have no idea

[Rowey]

@MajorTrouble Currently you cant as the API is Closed and we dont have a time frame when the API will be back up.

[Askaholic]

Well I think you still could, you'd just have to figure out how to get a login token first and then pass that token along with every request you make.

[prodromos]

I am an old player, that will never really abandon FAF. But in order to play this game more often I need to get new ladder games faster, not waiting like 3-10 minutes to get a new one. This literally kills me and practically makes me avoid "team" games because I know that the situation there is light years worse in terms of finding and actually beginning a new game.

Also , through the years a ton of changes happened, first GPG, then FAF through the years of Ze_Pilot, then gradually the forced link of the game with Steam , and the inability during the previous years to install the game on a different computer and connection with the same name, means I am shown as a player that I have played only a few custom games(nowadays called ranked) and about same amount of ladder(no matter the fact that I have certainly played over 10000, about half of them 1v1); being in danger to be called out as a smurf as well. I am pretty average to low skill, but still the experience accumulated through the years means if you pit me against a new player with a "low" but same rating he/she will have an unpleasant experience. So it is very basic , the true number of our games is displayed properly which is difficult , I know.