ACU TML too strong for short-range combat
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Unless the enemy ACU is stationary there's no guarantee you'll hit - it's challenging to time it right for a moving target that's moving predictably, let alone unpredictably, especially if the ACU is operating close to gun range (as opposed to much closer than that). By going TML you'll be forgoing defensive upgrades that make the ACU much stronger in combat. A mobile shield can also potentially block the TML missile (unless the ACU is operating close to the edge of the shield bubble). It also will only snipe them if they're sub-6k health limiting its use to either firing when it wont snipe them to try and put some damage on the ACU and force it to retreat, or waiting until they're low enough that they either die or are so low your ACU/units can kill them before they retreat. Finally, the enemy should already have a good idea you have a TML ACU since chances are you'll have used it to attack mexes (in part as it's not good enough given the above limitations that you'd get TML over shield/nano to just use in combat); so they should know to be careful getting too close to you, and to not keep their ACU stationery if 6k unexpected damage on it would lose them the game.
I'd hate to see this eliminated, since it's great to see when it's attempted (whether it's a success or not) in casts, and for the ACU TML user provides an interesting risk-reward option - the closer you get to them the greater your chance of hitting, but the greater the risk you die if you miss, while to a lesser extent the person considering attacking the ACU also has to weigh up the risks of say getting closer to their ACU when they think they can get a kill (to make it harder for them to retreat/get out of range) vs the increased risk of a TML hitting.
That said, I'm not saying the TML upgrade as a whole isn't powerful, just that this particular potential usage of it IMO makes the gameplay more varied and interesting (so if TML upgrade was considered too powerful as a whole taking the more niche ACU snipe potential into account, I'd rather the upgrade was made a bit weaker more generally by say increasing the cost; also because the proposed changes like speed and damage would make it inconsistent with a normal TML which wouldn't be intuitive)
M27AI and M28AI developer; Devlogs and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v71-devlog
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5331/m28ai-devlog-v150 -
@Kilatamoro said in ACU TML too strong for short-range combat:
Don't forget that Sera tacticals got double speed somewhat recently. Haven't tested, but it feels like the Sera version could be devastating against experimentals in close range.
As someone who tried I can say it’s almost useless. You can hit once or twice, but that’s not enough, it’s even less than one full overcharge. Very little dps, low chance to hit cause exps are pretty fast. Moreover was exps keeping distance is crucial, tml acu is paper. Imo it’s not really worth it even if you make statical tml, and with com it’s way too risky.
The only use case for TMLs vs exps is the battery of 6-7 tmls vs fatty, but that has nothing to do with TML ACU
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@maudlin27 it's challenging, but low risk and very high reward.
Acu tml in general is a bit overpowered so nerfing it would lightly address the problem in this thread aswell -
people abusing the new fast sera tml com to one shot coms is brutal
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I'd like to suggest increasing ACU TML minimum range to 130% gun range or something thereabouts, enough to ensure that if an opponent is hit by a missile as they're approaching, they have just enough time to turn around before they are finished off by the gun. Moreover, the TML com would no longer have such an easy time retreating from a fight by forcing their opponent to dodge, and it would solve the problem that at very close range, dodging requires luck.
On a related note, I'd like to also make a suggestion for fixing one of the UI's glaring flaws: add secondary icons to ACUs to represent their upgrades. Broadly speaking, it's our job to make and send scouts and it's the game's job to label and present the information they gather in a consistent manner - icons. We shouldn't have to zoom in and squint at a unit's 3d model or peculiar glow (while upgrading), and this information should persist for players to take note of even after vision is lost, provided there is radar coverage. I vaguely remember @Jip saying that changing the ACU icon is not possible, but maybe an otherwise invisible, unselectable unit can be made to accompany it and show the upgrades as icons right below it.
@maudlin27 currently, the TML com is very strongly incentivized to time their first missile to hit just as they enter gun range - a high probability hit since very few players zoom in and take note of the backpack. After that, the TML ACU can pursue while both shooting and lobbing missiles that are at their absolute hardest to dodge so close in, even experienced players need to get lucky to avoid taking hits. If their victim wants to disengage, they have to zig-zag as they go, making them effectively ~10% slower.
I like attacking coms with TML but I don't want a single well timed surprise hit just before an engagement to mean inescapable death for them.
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@Caliber said in ACU TML too strong for short-range combat:
people abusing the new fast sera tml com to one shot coms is brutal
Afaik this is unintended and should be fixed
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Hello, @phong (I mean gourand).
I totally agree with you: being able to see com upgrades are beneficial, escpecially for new players.
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You can calculate com upgrades from com HP and visuals
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That is an unreasonable expectation for new players
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Hiding important (s)acu upgrades (like laser/double gun) is a nice part of the game imo. Very often i suicide a unit on purpose into a min 18+ advancing cybran acu just to check if he made laser, or if im the one that made the laser i hold fire on my acu to trick my opponent.
Acus and sacus are the only units in the game where upon seeing them u dont instantly know how strong they are and it adds depth to the game.
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@Sainse if the information is available to players as you say, scouting it should highlight and label it as it does other information.
@TheWeakie apparently you're unaware "you can calculate com upgrades from HP and visuals". If Sainse is correct, he depth you refer to is that of your own ignorance of obscure, unintended, clunky ways of gathering intel when the game fails to communicate it and also fails to hide it. Either show this information properly or, if you're gonna argue for keeping it hidden, hide it properly. The way it is now is due to oversight by the original devs and players figuring out workarounds.
Here's some of the things that usually show up on text markers in team games: "com upgrading", "experimental under construction", "TML ACU" - all of that stuff is often scouted, the information is often revealed, the players do their jobs, but since the game doesn't do it's job of labeling and disseminating it, teammates have to do this part themselves too. There's no gameplay depth in leaving this burden to them.
I understand some are attached to the more interesting dynamics this flaw of the UI created but it also created some shitty dynamics as well. Gameplay depth should rely on players' choices, and the game should properly convey all the information needed to inform those choices.
Maybe a good middle ground is to give the upgrade icons stealth.
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@phong It is hidden properly. You can see if enemy is stalling mass, how much mass he has in storage, how much energy he has in storage, etc, etc. by visuals only. Never seen anyone complaining “I should be notified the enemy overflows mass” as automating everything like this is a legal map hack. The game has plenty of ways to get intel already.
Think of all the stuff that usually shows up on text markers in team games
Game does that for allies, not for enemies. For enemies players need to watch out for big gun acu themselves.
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Game does that for allies, not for enemies. For enemies players need to watch out for big gun acu themselves.
The game alerts you when teammates get upgrades and build experimentals via chat messages. These were implemented in faf and are not in the base game - another example of info that's relevant, poorly communicated, that got a fix which I think is imperfect because it's transient and lacks location information and is at odds with how the game usually presents info: using icons. As for enemies, "gun acu" text markers are quite common in the early game, players add this info to the map themselves, after scouting it and recognizing it, because the game doesn't do it. Getting the information isn't the problem, showing it is.
My suggestion would not make the information easier to get. If a com got gun and I didn't scout it, the invisible unit that would show this upgrade icon next to the com would not be revealed to me until I had vision of it, same as all other units in the game. How is that a "legal map hack"? Literally the only difference would be I wouldn't need to zoom in to see the big gun. Why are you so attached to this oddity in the game's presentation? Is that what you call gameplay depth?
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The difference is that one is your team’s total information that always exists, the other is information that requires you to take the time to digest. If you quickly skim and see an ACU walking, that’s lazier intel than if you took the time to get additional information from it. Same way paying attention to a UEF shot doing 200 instead of 100 damage will tell you it’s a gun ACU even though it’s shooting at the same rate. Had plenty of situations of it being unoticed and it genuinely is a tactical advantage of UEF gun upgrade.
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@FtXCommando As I said, I understand some are attached to the more interesting dynamics this flaw of the UI created but it also created some shitty dynamics as well. Gameplay depth should rely on players' choices, and the game should properly convey all the information needed to inform those choices.
Gameplay depth should not rely on noticing damage values or 3d model variations. It's a RTS not a "spot the difference" game. If the devs had included units that don't have associated icons, I'd have to concede that this was an intended mechanic, but they never did. They went with stealth, cloak or jamming instead, when they wanted to implement gameplay involving intel gathering. And when those abilities trip you up, it doesn't feel like it's the game screwing you instead of your opponent.
