Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
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@slicknixon said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
What percentage of games are fullshare, and what's the priority in balancing this particular mechanic around them? Squaring that circle is going to be tough, akin to adding or removing a unit from Cybran based on victory condition.
Both AstroCrater and DualGap are played NoShare which obvsly are a majority of FAF. However balance doesn't refer to those maps aka isn't directed to it (due to obvious reasons) so I'll leave them out. Seton's is fullshare, but again, balance isn't targeted to that.
TMM is completely played fullshare, so if you check the active TMM-games you can alrdy see how many fullshare games are running. For my personal experience I would say that like 90% of the ""normal"" (aka non-astro|gap|seton's) maps are being played with fullshare now. You can check the "statistics megathread" since there might be a number there, however I couldn't find one by skipping through it.Also keep in mind that balance is around 1v1-3v3 TMM which are fullshare.
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Sounds like fullshare is the priority then, in which case survivability is secondary.
Primary telemazor balance knobs are therefore:
- range
- upgrade cost
- teleport cost
- mazor attributes
Secondary knobs:
- teleport time
Was there much exploration of changing teleporter balance on a per faction basis (cost, range, etc.), not just in regard to synergistic upgrades?
@relentless, @FtXCommando
For a variable cost, you could have the number popup next to the cursor. Looks cool, very intuitive, technically easy. -
I like the T3 MAA, Vulthoo, T2 Trans, and Air HQ proposed changes.
Not sure about the Teleport, TeleBilly and Janus changes - I would like to see more info on those.
I'm not a fan of the Stinger and ASF proposed changes.
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T3 MAA
Needed a change going for it.
I'm happy it's going somewhere, here with this buff. -
Vulthoo
Good change. Makes the unit more heavy-duty.
Similar to the Illshy. Also makes up for the lack of a T3 gunship. -
T2 Transports
Their speed is barely changed, but it is lowered.
They felt a little too quick and maneuverable with the last patch's changes.
Good change, even if it isn't much. -
Air HQ:
Positive change in increasing Build Time.
Slowing down T2/T3 air is a good step in reducing the oppressiveness of T3 air. -
Teleport (Range & FX)
I think could be good, but with more twiddling.
Perhaps a small change in teleport time?
The FX changes, I like. However, I would like to see a LOD increase along with it, to make it a tad slightly more visible from a higher camera angle/altitude. -
TeleBilly
I'm looking forward to it, though with this combination, it would now be impossible to Teleport with a T3 suite, in general. Just Tele and T3, I mean.
Which in my opinion is why placing it on the left arm didn't make much sense to me.
However, the other option would be more oppressive (T3, Tele, and Billy), so I can understand that.
But if that's the case, why not move Billy instead of Tele?
So, Tele and T3 can still be a thing as well as Billy and T3 would be possible, but not Tele and T3?
Granted, this could mean other combinations that should not make sense, either. -
Janus
I'm for, but being honest, I feel indifferent about it.
Janus is still the worst Fighter-Bomber and will probably continue to be, even after this change. -
Stinger
I dislike these changes... a lot.
This change feels quite out of the blue as to why they're being changed.
The problem with them was their tracking... was this not fixed with this?
Why are they being changed, now?
Making a unit like the Stinger cheaper is not the way to go.
The only way I can see this change working out is if that one weird idea from Discord of them coming preloaded with a LAB, but even then, it won't make sense. -
ASF
An already oppressive unit made better?
What's the reasoning behind these changes? Performance?
@Jip has improved the game considerably over the last year or two.
Delaying the first ASF? Achieved via the Air HQ BT changes.
If anything, ASF need a nerf as they're too oppressive against T2 and T3 air.
A nerf in damage, at least.
Anywho, just my two cents.
~ Stryker
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@comradestryker said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
ASF changes, an already oppressive unit made better?
What's the reasoning behind these changes? Performance?
Jip has improved the game considerably.
Delay the first ASF? Achieved with the Air HQ BT changes.
If anything, ASF need a nerf as they're too oppressive against T2 and T3 air.
A nerf in damage, at least.I'll try to explain my (mostly own opinion) thought process behind that.
Currently the t3 air meta is just to rush air and scale your airgrid infinitely until you won air, then abuse it. When you have mass, you go t3 mex besides that.
The change is more radical on purpose so we can feel the impact in beta. Goal is to 1) Delay the ASF in general so t1 and t2 air have more time and frontplayers can use them as well for a longer periode 2) Let ASF-fights last a bit longer and 3) Let the airgrid-scaling be more interesting with more conscious decisions you have to make.
Imagine you cannot just scale your airgrid and go mexes besides that, imagine that you really have to think whether you can afford to invest ressources into eco or if you have to build more ASF first.The cost-change is not directly a nerf. It's a shift such as the T2 Sera Gunship. It's better (e.g. hp) but also costs more so you don't have 30ASF at min 16 but like 20.
Please keep in mind that these number - as said before - are a heavy change for the simple reason to see how it affects the airplay in general.
Inactive.
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I see, that is actually fair reasoning.
But, If I may say, there are other ways, as well.Reducing damage from ASF, increasing Build Time, increasing mass, increasing energy...
Any combination of these could obtain a similar result.Reducing damage would increase ASF fight duration, as you mentioned, and increasing resource costs would obtain the difference between Mexes and Air, as you mentioned.
And increasing build time reduces the number of ASF so you have less ASF at minute 16, as you mentioned.
Yes, I can understand that an overall buff to make it more costly is what you're aiming for,
but I don't think that's the best way to go with ASF.It makes sense how you explained it, yes, but, well... The T3 air dynamic is just all wrong.
I'm happy it is getting some attention here to try and fix it, that's all.
~ Stryker
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@ComradeStryker
T3 Air in general is an insanely difficult subject because it's far from balanced. If you nerf it too much / in the wrong way, t2 air (which is already insanely strong as well) just becomes even stronger.
See it as an experiment, it's prob not the final product anyway for this patch but just a small step into the direction we're aiming to go.Please do play around with it in beta once it's out and experiment around. Especially when trying something with t1 and t2 air or in general how greedy you can scale / eco. Depending on the results we'll see whether it's the right direction or if we have to go for a different approach.
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Will do. Looking forward to that Beta.
If I may ask... and I apologize if it's too soon to tell, but are these all the changes?
I was hoping to see something in regards to the Fatboy, as it was the biggest topic, on both the Forums and Discord for about 3 or 4 weeks.Well, Fatboy and other changes, as well.
~ Stryker
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@ComradeStryker
Feel free to ask anything you want!
And no, those were definitely not all the changes. The Fatty is definitely a thing I wanna talk about, same with some other important (and tbf quite large) topics.
I can talk only for me here, but I want to talk about the UEF bubbleshield, the mercies, the TML and the Fatty at least. The rest is up to the others, also cannot promise that we get through everything cuz there is a strict deadline. -
Put t3 on uefs backpack so noobs would stop getting the drone upgrade
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T TheWeakie referenced this topic on
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Updated the changelog with more detailed explanations.
I also want to point out that there is a reason why this is Faf Beta. It is meant exactly to test out new unit/ability design ideas. Whether the first iteration of the change is balanced or not does not mean it shouldn't be tested out.
Also obviously if it turns out a unit or ability is too strong or too weak in beta we would take another good look at it.
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@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
I think it's quite funny that people instantly see the vulthoo change as a buff even though it technically worsens the stats / mass invested compared to the current version while the stinger more or less stays the same.
It might only be 'my played race syndrome'.
We're all so vulnerable to the impression that the race we prefer are weak, need buffs, and keep getting nerfed, and/or the races we don't are strong, need nerfs, and keep getting buffs.
I recognise that, even though I play ABSOLUTELY balanced (more than always-random: meaning that I cross-off a race when it has randomly been picked more than another), I STILL do it! (I kinda like seraphim, and suggest things like lightning tank being 'fixed' to stop missing, or selen being 'fixed' to not be reclaimed so easily by engineers....)
I think we're ALL massively guilty of this, no matter our noble intentions, and I think it's probably the reason for certain adjustments being seen as 'nerfs' or 'buffs' depending on whether said player prefers UEF or Seraphim.I could be wrong, of course... But I've seen it SO often in SO many games, I really think it's a possible reason here, and not a lot more time needs to be dedicated to figuring it out.
(For clarity - yes, vulthoo is definitely better vs T2 antiair, but worse vs T1 and T3 antiair, including ASFs. The opposite is true for the stinger changes, it seems... Somewhat necessitated by lack of a t3 gunship for sera.
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Mass efficiency doesn’t matter, the Vulthoos role in the Seraphim toolbox is to be a strong and hardy, albeit inefficient sniping tool that can shrug off flak… I.e. kill a land experimental that’s coming at your base, and get the reclaim anyways. Since they don’t have a T3 gunship they have to use the less mass/hp efficient T2 tech (usually DPS per mass goes down and HP per mass goes up as you tech). But the Vulthoo is like a T2.5 unit, and now it’s more like a T2.75 unit. It only further fleshes out the gap in the Seraphim air force.
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Debuffed t3 air = nothas spam as hard as u can, specially on maps where 2 mexes are 1 cell apart each other.
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@xejinord11 said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Debuffed t3 air = nothas spam as hard as u can, specially on maps where 2 mexes are 1 cell apart each other.
Pretty sure Inties and Swifties still exist and are far cheaper and faster to build... and are at T1 or the same Tech.
~ Stryker
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Variable teleport costs demo here.
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Hi guys,
I think you can simplify all the recent changes by just removing Cybran out the game as that seems to be the goal. Let me explain.
I am a Setoner and exclusively played Cybran for the last 2 years. When the last patch came out and Cybran had HARMS and hives totally ruined, you can take my word for this as my beach defense relied heavily on these and worked like a charm, I was forced to swap.
Let me explain what I mean by HARMS being ruined. Traditionally these were among the toughest units to deal with, the best way being ground fire. However with ground fire being difficult to direct, and HARMS having a lot of health they were an excellent unit. Now with the massive reduction in health, having less range then all destroyers bar sera, and the additional ease of ground fire, you can basically just laugh at them. I just click a cruiser onto each one and wait 20 seconds as the missiles don't miss.
Next hives and purely far worse engineering stations and should NEVER be used unless you cant get UEF tech.
Currently the reduction in damage for the Cybran com laser snipe means its far far less effective.
These changes have already ruined Cybran, totally and completely in any late game. I will never choose Cybran now as they are by far the worst. Long time Cybran player Mize also agrees and is playing Aoen.Now ignoring this, EVERY other faction in the game has a pinpoint game ender that can destroy other game enders. Cybran do not have this ability. The Scathis will never be able to defeat a shielded anything. The answer to this was always the telesnipe. Now with the range and damage changes we are better off using harsh words.
ANYONE who gets telesniped late game deserves what they get. If you lose your 250k Mavor to a telesnipe, maybe you should have planned a bit better and made some shields and PD.
In conclusion, I think it'll just be easier to remove Cybran from game. You've already done great with the Setoners group as no one I see now actively plays them, they just get them on random.
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@storm Can you expand by detailing what UEF, Aeon, and Seraphim strategies you are now using?
I mean, instead of the HARMS, or the hive, or the tele-laser snipe?You mentioned endgame artillery, but it all feels pretty similar there tbh (shield your big gun, fire your big gun at the enemy, wait - all a bit simcity for me, but...).
In addition to all this, the statement that 'I'm a Setoner' usually carries with it (sadly) the ability to exchange engineers with teammates, and thus, IMO, all semblance of racial balance is immediately eliminated outside of T1 rushing (I really don't think sharing engineers with allies is a good idea because of this).
But still, I really want to know what you've replaced your HARMS and your telesniping and your hives with, from the UEF/Aeon/Seraphim toolkits.I personally play random, and don't play Setons, but I'm really eager to know what is going on there - cybran are really strong in my area of play (mantis are just wonderful!), despite lack of good hover units, but I want to learn more.
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HARMs were both OP and not fun to play against. Nothing in Cybran roster relies on HARMs as some fulcrum for their naval gameplay. If you were reliant on it, it's because you were abusing a gimped unit rather than playing the perfectly functional Cybran navy. As a sentoner, you should be aware that there were a decent portion of high level sentoners that made house rules to just not use HARMs because of this, including Yudi.
Hives were likewise not ruined. By ruined you mean they were brought down to the statline of UEF kennels. Costs UEF like 25 mass per unit of BP in a kennel, costs Cybran like 18 mass per unit of BP in the first stage of hive. Hives carry more general utility via instant transfer across projects compared to kennels which have innate lag and can be interacted with by units like aa or interceptors. So even if they were equal in mass per BP, hives would still be better in most situations.
For laser:
let's say you have Aeon T2 PD and you're playing a Cybran that has no vet. You have 4 seconds before a Cybran ACU kills you. Oblivions fire every 4 seconds. This means you need 17 Oblivions to be in range to kill the Cybran ACU before you die assuming no stationary shields. But people will make survivability upgrades. Let's give the Aeon ACU 19000 more HP. Now you have 10 seconds. That means you only need to make 9 Oblivion turrets. That's approximately, at an utter minimum, 10k mass in t2 PD and I think another 3kish in ACU upgrades? Now put that across 4 slots, and you have around 52k mass in defenses. None of this is possible to make as a response late game btw, it just needs to exist on the sheer reality that Cybran exists. It also doesn't factor in that any map beyond dual gap, you have an air grid away from SMD away from potentially ACU away from large mex expansions which can all be teleported for value.That's for an upgrade costing 15k mass, btw. Of course the cost of tele is inherently more focused on E, but at min 28 you can have the 5 t3 pgens to make it in 2 minutes basically anywhere, especially sentons.
Playing random faction is basically universal at 1800+, I can think of like 3 examples where it isn't true and 2 are Cybran players. I imagine at sentons, nearly everyone 1500+ also plays random just because it's established as the norm in that community in the first place.
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@sylph_ Not endgame artillery, just anyway to end a game. lets say you are on a map that lends itself to a longer game such as setons, gap anything over 10k etc. Salvation, mavor or sats and YOLO will always win against a scathis due to its inability to hit single targets and down shields.
Telesnipe is soon to be extinct with these changes as it is already struggling with the 25% damage nerf already.
As for navy, Cybrans advantage was always HARMS on the defensive. They were excellent units, however now they are totally useless as the mass needed for them is so high compared to their new abilities. The Exodus out ranges them now and can ground fire, the UEF and Sera have cruisers which can pinpoint execute the HARMS with almost no effort.
As for race, I've went both sera and UEF. For defensive purposes UEF have the excellent neptune rush which stops t2 pushes dead, and the sera of course have zooeys if you need them as well as tele sacus which are amazing with nukes.
Engineering stations are better in every way than hives due to their mobility.
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@storm said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
As for navy, Cybrans advantage was always HARMS on the defensive. They were excellent units, however now they are totally useless as the mass needed for them is so high compared to their new abilities. The Exodus out ranges them now and can ground fire, the UEF and Sera have cruisers which can pinpoint execute the HARMS with almost no effort.
?????????????????
Trident? Barracuda? Galaxy? Salem is tolerable now though I still don't like using it. If you're defensive, salems don't need to worry about kiting backwards so most of their disadvantages are gone anyway.
Engineering stations are better in every way than hives due to their mobility.
Just completely not based in reality, literally nobody made a kennel in the world of this game when hives were 14 mass per BP. I still rarely see kennels, but it's at least not actively hitting yourself in the knee with an iron bar to make them anymore.
Literally no Cybran player in the last like, 10 years has asked for a UEF engineer to make kennels. The reverse happens 5 times daily on dual gap.
