Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread

@xiaomao i watched the replay. It's not fine. I agree a problem is there. Why are you fishing with this "tell me that's fine" bullshit when that's not what I'm arguing?

That doesn't automatically mean the scorched earth solution is good. assuming the player ratings are representative (since the opposite is just a red herring) my suggestion is to modify the matchmaker to look for teams with similar rating spreads. They're easier to come by than full 2k 4v4 teams anyway since some people don't queue in a group and would affect waiting times far less.

A fix to the lane balance could make that scenario better than it is now.

There isn't a fix because someone semi competent at the game can utterly throttle someone with no idea all the time, forever. The reason the guy is 3300 is because he has some level of understanding of how to win the game and plays dudes with zero clue. For it to "fix" itself everyone on FAF at 1800+ is going to gain like 600-800 rating because that's what they would be capable of gaining by just sitting in all welcome games farming 1v0 games. But people don't do that, because it isn't fun to gank bad players for most of the people of the game. People play relatively close players in TS because those lead to the games which are close and you can actually think about what to do.

This is a problem that exists in every rating system, these distribution algorithms are not good at the utter tails where the difference in 100 rating is a 99.9997% win rate or a 99.9999997% win rate.

"Fixing lane balance" also sucks as a solution because you force boring maps where every slot is facing an equal counterbalance of itself. The fun games are where slots aren't mirrored and one slot has 15 mexes vs another than has 10. It introduces gameplay elements beyond "well my mirror did X so now I do X because we always have the same resources available to us at all times."

Ftx, that was in response to the ridiculous replay you posted with the global rating abuser and the stupid air balance on display. there was a 1400 player on the opposite team that should have been vs white and you can't possibly be arguing that the 1200 vs 1800 garbage that the opti balancer came up with for air was "interesting". Given a bunch of players that don't queue together, autobalance does a better job of arranging a decent game than opti, not least because it also takes uncertainty into account. You also say that some noobs complain when pitted against much stronger opponents by opti balance (presumably a bad thing, since you seemed to think this argument supports your claims), then you go back and defend that as being "interesting". Funnily enough, it's an interesting thing you want gone. Take your pick, you can't have it both ways.

Autobalance doesn't currently support pre-made teams but it's a feature Penguin had already prototyped but got cut, I'm sure it could be brought back.

You want the tails of the distribution to only play among themselves? good luck finding a rated game at any other time than saturday night CET. The tails are too thin with the current player count for that to work otherwise.

@ftxcommando said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:

The logic of building up to map gen is that lower skill brackets need to "learn the lessons" of some maps in a more controlled environment.

I'd totally agree with you here, except for the fact that many of the 'low elo' maps actually teach completely different lessons than those required for top-level play.
Our discussion of williamson's bridge, and its lack of 'going around defenses' tactics, are important here. Many of the low-ELo ladder maps actually teach the wrong lessons - while random maps would teach better lessons.
(And, also, random maps would remove the advantage given to players than have just played a lot of games, too)

The rest of this discussion (carry slots, etc) is totally over my head, I'm afraid! At the very least I'll offer the data point that I've been given 'air; in every team game I've queued for in the matchmaker (I know this because at the start of the each team game I ask what I'm supposed to be doing!).

The only other data-point I feel might be useful is that a team-game 1000-rating player seems roughly equivalent to a 400 1v1 player.

Again, this is a newcomer's perspective. x

@xiaomao said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:

G-great. You picked a game with underrated Voodo stack, full on voice and playing same squad every fucking day be it 4v4 or 3v3.
The 500 rated player you see there is actually 1.1k in 4v4 with his Voodo stack.

You better watch this https://replay.faforever.com/19738422 and tell me this is fine.

Also, this is just sad:

XD

You misunderstand my statement about tails. I’m talking about the individual result of a 500 beating a 1900 or whatever equivalent. Is this a 99.99997% end result or a 99.9999997% end result? Impossible for the system to ever know because nobody is simulating 3000 of these games to normalize the ratings across this disparate of a rating difference.

Though this is mainly a problem when combined with the reality of teamgames basically always being possible to balance at 85% or better and therefore allow this level of farming. Because again, you’re pretty much not facing any equivalent opponent if you’re like 2000 on sentons air with 500 allies but the whole enemy team consists of 1000s.

My proposal of allowing 1000 rating of breathing room effectively means everyone has access to the mean population group, so the issue of games doesn’t really matter. Except if you’re like -500 or 2500, but these dudes should still not really be playing with 1000s honestly.

@spikeynoob you guys did a sweaty t2 air all in vs 1ks smh xD

good evidence for ftx though

I was very excided about "New 1v1 Ladder Map Selections", where was said about the intention of matchmaker team to eliminate very small or large maps and extremely high reclaim maps, and focus on more consistent ladder experience
I was thinking about "no 5x5 (sad), no 20x20 (good), more 10x10 (15x15, maybe?) open palm-ish (gold standard for me) type of maps, no reclaim mountains etc

And now i am extremely disappointed
They indeed removed 5x5 for 1200+ (sad, but doable)
But now from 8 maps i got 3 20x20, so if press a btn i got large map in 37.5% cases
More over, i have no idea how Bermuda Locket (20x20 map with reclaim mountains) can be in the pool where supposed to not be large maps and maps with reclaim mountains
Crossfire canal also, it is again large map, and you can say anything, but you cannot say about any "consistency" in ladder gameplay when this map in a pool. The land paths to enemy bases are non-existing there, so you cannot push with land spam directly, which is maybe fine alone, but not with the fact that navy also fights in thin water tunnels. The crossfire canal gameplay differs from average ladder map very drastically. And this is only the cherry on the cake, it shouldnt be there just because its 20x20.
I cannot say anything bad about point of reach except its size tho (yes, direct land push is impossible, but atleast navy gameplay is "as always"). As with all 20x20, the game length there can be very different than 10x10. Cannot see any sense being 20x20 in a pool where is no 5x5 for "game length should be consistent" reason.

Additional feedback data:
Im 1600 1v1 ladder
here is the tier-list of current mappool:

as you see, the pool overall is not so bad
Bad is the fact that i got 100% of S-tier maps and 62% of A-tier maps deleted just because im in 1200+ bracket
With 37.5% of 20x20 maps in my pool i surelly will press the btn less, will probably just switch to 3v3 where you have no 20x20 in the pool at all (also the pool full of neroxis is very tasty) (lol, why we have 20x20 in 1v1 and dont have it in 3v3)
You gain rating, you get more of shitty maps, i think this is not how it should be working
Veto system would be help, if i could atleast ban bermuda and crossfire it would be good enough (except the map pool of only 6 maps is kinda small). Also in this case you can add couple of 5x5, so 20x20 lovers ban 5x5, and 5x5 lovers ban 20x20, everyone is happy
Without veto system, i think the max map size should be capped at 15x15, otherwise i doubt about any consistency in game length / gameplay.
the link to make ur tier list: https://tiermaker.com/create/faf-1v1-ladder-mappool-0923-16127913

@etfreeman

You are interpreting the mappool wrong. With 1600 ladder rating you will have 13 maps in your mappool. The misinterpretation is not your fault, the announcement post of the new pool contains an error. It should have been mentioned that you get maps from your own bracket + the bracket below that.

Consequently that means ~30% of your maps will be 20x20 and the rest will be 10x10.

Bermuda Locket and Crossfire Canal are indeed somewhat on the high side in reclaim. The reason for their inclusion is that there are not many suitable alternatives that allow for navy play for 1v1. But I agree that it is not optimal, considering the parameters that were set for this new format. If you have suggestions for other navy play maps for 1v1, that are more suitable, let me know.

Last, I don't think it was ever the intention to exclude 20x20 maps completely from this 1v1 trial format, but I understand your confusion, now that I reread Arch's announcement.

I agree that 30% 20x20 maps might be a bit much. Perhaps we can remove one.

Yeah we'll go for max 3 20x20's instead of 4 for the upcoming pools of the trial.

@etfreeman said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:

...

Hey apologies for not communicating the change properly. The 1v1 map pool now considers your current rating bracket and the one below it, like the other matchmaker queues. This means that the ratio of 20km maps is approx. 30% (4/13) for the highest bracket. I'll get someone with moderator rights to add that to the map pool post. Regardless, we'll consider decreasing the amount of 20km maps for the next pool.

As for Bermuda and Crossfire, I do agree that they are outliers. However, there's an unfortunate lack of navy maps suitable for 1v1. I'm not sure if we can get rid of maps such as those entirely. We'll take your feedback into consideration though. For what it's worth, note that there's no Ditch, Daroza, Painted Desert, or such maps.

Thanks for the feedback!

(damn storm replying while I was writing!)

Crossfire and Bermuda aren't real 20x20s. I don't even think the used area of Bermuda qualifies as 15x15. They absolutely compare to the settings of 3v3 maps in terms of playable area.

Hiya all,

Not sure if this it the right thread but...

I've been indulging in some FAF map making. Trying to make good 1v1 maps. Worthy of the ladder.
My FAF username is comdek.
I've got 2 maps that I would like to submit for review for possble ladder maps.

(Da Fearless Assassin) - 5k - Fun map, stragticly simple, great for newer players, encourages Com fight in mid.
(Hoizons) - 10k - Strategic map, good for higher rated players, lots of work to make this a good strategic map, needs 2k players to review.

I'd love any feedback,
-comdek

I thought the intentions of the mappool changes were to decrease rng based games. I think 20km mapgen (or 15km+ land mapgen) with tons of mex on them were the most brutal offenders of inconsistent games. They'd come down to whoever gets away with the greediest proxies and slowly grind down a win, or have the game end to some random t2 air cheese or by someone getting t3 air a bit sooner (impossible to scout cuz u got 60 mex and 12 different armies to manage). Crossfire canal and PoR are kinda eh in the early game for the same proxy reasons but are nice to play once expansions are settled. Bermuda has no issues at all. It's high mass but it's impossible to lose both sides unless you're a clown

@comdek said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:

Hiya all,

Not sure if this it the right thread but...

I've been indulging in some FAF map making. Trying to make good 1v1 maps. Worthy of the ladder.
My FAF username is comdek.
I've got 2 maps that I would like to submit for review for possble ladder maps.

(Da Fearless Assassin) - 5k - Fun map, stragticly simple, great for newer players, encourages Com fight in mid.
(Hoizons) - 10k - Strategic map, good for higher rated players, lots of work to make this a good strategic map, needs 2k players to review.

I'd love any feedback,
-comdek

You can find the #matchmaker-submission channel on the FAF-Discord. Just create a thread there, post your maps and you'll get some feedback from us
Doing it there is way easier than the forum and keeps things organised

Who controls the coding of the map generator?
I wonder whether it might be worth putting a cap on the amount of reclaim it can create?

@sylph_ said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:

Who controls the coding of the map generator?
I wonder whether it might be worth putting a cap on the amount of reclaim it can create?

Sheikah

Now the pool is nice, thanks everyone, keep it like that for the whole year B)

As a map maker who's had a couple maps in rotation, I'd like to ask on behalf of mappers for some kind of documentation on why certain maps aren't in rotation. Currently, It's very difficult to figure out if one's own map is not in the pool due to problems with the map, or the pool was just mixing things up, as it should.

I'd like a spreadsheet or something of all the maps eligible for pool selection, and maps recently deemed ineligible, why they're ineligible, and the discord name of who made the map.

NOTE TO MAP POOL MODERATORS: Yes, I know. You guys already have a lot on your plate, that's why I'd like to volunteer to maintain the project. I firmly believe that this addition would greatly benefit map pool mappers, as they can receive one clear, concise DM, with the final verdict on what in the map needs fixing. No DM should = No problem, and if there is a problem with a mapper's map, they can expect a ping to let them know. This will greatly streamline their repairing process, as they won't need to ask every map pool mod to tell them what's wrong with the map, and why it needs to be fixed. Hopefully will end up also reducing a load from your backs.

Thanks!
-Crimson

@thecrimsonknight said in Matchmaker Pool Feedback Thread:

I firmly believe that this addition would greatly benefit map pool mappers

This is a fantastic post, worthy of reading.
I firmly believe that this addition would greatly benefit players, as well!
If you're willing to query people and maintain such a list, massive kudos to you!

(I don't make maps, I just play games!)