Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?

@sylph_ said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

(exception - players that quit immediately on game start.)

That's blocking the game so totally bannable

Are we actually banning people permanently?

@jip

Given that you fixed the quote-unquote "glitch" by adding code in Lua, disabling unit intel in the same way shields are disabled when a unit is attached to a transport, I'll ask in return for you to explain how the engine bug of Stinger's with cargo being selectable in transports is related to the issue, instead of a bit of rhetorical sleight-of-hand.

Stinger's selectable in carriers:

• in engine
• not fixable

Deceiver's giving stealth to carriers:

• in lua
• "fixable" (without any hacks, at that!)

@spikeynoob said

Problem solved.

This is true if the problem is deceivers granting stealth to carriers. If the problem is emergent behavior being unilaterally removed from the game then it's quite severely the opposite.

@slicknixon said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

@jip

Given that you fixed the quote-unquote "glitch" by adding code in Lua, disabling unit intel in the same way shields are disabled when a unit is attached to a transport, I'll ask in return for you to explain how the engine bug of Stinger's with cargo being selectable in transports is related to the issue, instead of a bit of rhetorical sleight-of-hand.

Stinger's selectable in carriers:

• in engine
• not fixable

Deceiver's giving stealth to carriers:

• in lua
• "fixable" (without any hacks, at that!)

@slicknixon said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

@spikeynoob said

Problem solved.

This is true if the problem is deceivers granting stealth to carriers. If the problem is emergent behavior being unilaterally removed from the game then it's quite severely the opposite.

I'll be honest that I'm no longer interested in debating this. The use of 'unilaterally' is inappropriate. It is considered a glitch by the game team and it is undesired by the balance team. If both of those teams agree then it is far from 'unilaterally'. Other people have been acting in a patronizing or just plain insulting manner too. It is not constructive and it doesn't make me want to discuss it further.

But here we go.

The engine is clearly unable to properly process transports-within-transports or transports-within-cargo. It shows by the Stinger being the only unit that can act as a transport and then bugging out when it does so. It bugs out by acting like this:

The engine disables all weapon ranges of units that are inside a carrier. All weapons of those units are disabled too. Intel is not disabled by the engine because unlike the average unit-related system, intel is entirely managed in Lua. You can read up about it here

Given that the unit is unable to interact with the simulation. And given that the unit is unable to be damaged. And given that you can not select the unit (even though when the game thinks you can, but can't) it seems a natural conclusion that the unit does not exist at that moment. Let alone the cargo of the unit. Therefore to me it is a bug that even though nothing of the unit interacts with the simulation the intel (that is entirely managed in Lua) still works somehow and the unit still consumes maintenance.

On top of that, balance-wise it was undesired.

So we removed it through Lua.

Similarly there is more 'emergent behavior' or 'unintended consequences' where the cargo of the transport that itself is the cargo of a carrier would become invincible. It was as easy as this: put a hover unit in the cargo of the Stinger. Let the Stinger enter the Atlantis. Let the Atlantis die. The hover unit is now invisible and invincible, but it can reclaim or fire its weapons. Surely we can agree that this is a bug that originates from the same origin: the game being unable to properly process transports-in-transports or transports-in-cargo.

We removed that too through Lua .

With that said, this entire discussion is a bit cringe to me and this is my last post on the topic. I can't understand how you all want to spent time debating a 'feature' of the game that you practically never use. Meanwhile, as one example, we're re-implementing how spread attack / distribute orders works which is going to change the experience of every game you play and nobody (of this topic) appears to be interested in spending time on understanding that. Take the time to explain that to me please

If a decision has been reached by the game and balance teams then there was no discussion to be had in the first place. My concern was that the decision had been made solely on your interpretation as game lead.

I haven't had the time to look at the new spread attack implementation. Having gone through the old one in some detail I felt there was room for improvement and am glad it has arrived. My only regret is I never got around to exploring whatever trapdoors the old implementation left in the Sim<->UI barrier before they were latched forever. Looking forward to finding out if there are any new ones.

How is this a balance issue when absolutely nobody has been doing that and it's only been brought up as a curiosity?

I am sad to see this interaction go. It was a very niche thing that required the interaction of three factions' tech, with arguably limited usefulness. The group I regularly play with has been aware of this interaction for the better part of a year, but I can count on one hand the number of times we've actually found a reason and the time/spare apm to use this tactic.

@Jip

I can't understand how you all want to spent time debating a 'feature' of the game that you practically never use

I am concerned about this change because it fits in a larger pattern of changes that I feel are not good long-term for the health of the game.

One of the most enjoyable things about the original Supcom:FA was the way that the different factions have their own peculiarities, and the way that those interact with eachother. I've mentioned in several previous discussion that I am really not stoked seeing the balance team homogenize the factions and removing all of these gimmicks. Not all features of the game have to be used regularly to remain in game, as demonstrated by the continued existence of firebeetles.

@SpikeyNoob

... Should we really keep strange edge cases...

Yes.

What other gimmicks have been removed?

I believe

Ctrl k sat to destroy nuke
Asf hitting nukes to detonate
Asf hitting strat bombs
T1 aa hitting nukes
Off screening is bannable

There's a few more ones that could be considered fun. The asf ones and the t1 aa one above are really cool interactions but can ruin gameplay

At jip, I really appreciate the explanation, the problem here is that new game feature is discovered and then people behind the curtain take it away. If the people behind the curtain throw their weight around too much there won't be anyone in the audience.

I really like the new spread commands, I didn't really think there was a need to talk about it.

Also, because it's on the table--when something is added to the base release (spread attack), if it's bad there's a pretty good chance it won't stick around. A feature in the base game is tested constantly by the entire player base, people get experience with it, and feedback is forthcoming.

When something is removed from the game, getting it back in requires:

1. Reimplementing it
2. Distributing it
3. Getting enough people to play it to actually form an opinion
4. Marshalling enough support from #3 to get it re-added to the release

After the axe falls here, someone interested in getting "deceivers cloak carriers" back in the game will need to do #1, #2, and #3 all by their lonesome (I can see the very respectful forum posts now, something along the lines of "it was taken out for a reason, idiot") while a feature newly added to the game--like the new spread attack--gets that administrative overhead for free.

Finally, removing something because "it's practically never used" is a bad metric. Something that isn't used remains in the solution space, with the possibility to find use when A. a future adjacent change is made or B. some new interaction or pattern is discovered to be effective. I'll speak for myself and say that I like it when unusual stuff happens. Locking doors for no reason other than people aren't using them moves the game away from that.

@jip said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

With that said, this entire discussion is a bit cringe to me and this is my last post on the topic. I can't understand how you all want to spent time debating a 'feature' of the game that you practically never use. Meanwhile, as one example, we're re-implementing how spread attack / distribute orders works which is going to change the experience of every game you play and nobody (of this topic) appears to be interested in spending time on understanding that. Take the time to explain that to me please

FWIW I don't bother commenting on it because I don't use any aspect of spread orders beyond shift+g of attack or shift+g of move commands. Never felt the need to get the disperse move UI mod or anything similar. The changes don't really disrupt any of my functional use cases and much of the additions I don't intend to use so no point in me giving input.

Though my posts here are more focused on that it would be hilariously dumb to get warned or banned for something this inconsequential. Don't mind it being fixed, but if it was in the game it really should be no problem to use.

@ftxcommando said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

Though my posts here are more focused on that it would be hilariously dumb to get warned or banned for something this inconsequential. Don't mind it being fixed, but if it was in the game it really should be no problem to use.

We won't ban anyone over it. As far as the moderation team is concerned it is perfectly ok. Its just getting removed because it is unbalanced/a glitch.

If it was op, it would be meta, yet it's also said nobody does it.

Sounds like there's glitches with the stinger, but the deceiver doesn't sound like the glitch itself.

@veteranashe said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

If it was op, it would be meta, yet it's also said nobody does it.

Sounds like there's glitches with the stinger, but the deceiver doesn't sound like the glitch itself.

This feels like the whole blinking lights situation all over again. "Its not meta so not op" is not a valid argument. Why should a niche situation that few people know about (that is not intuitive) allow units that are balanced independently to gain abilities that are special to other units.

@indexlibrorum said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

I am sad to see this interaction go. It was a very niche thing that required the interaction of three factions' tech, with arguably limited usefulness. The group I regularly play with has been aware of this interaction for the better part of a year, but I can count on one hand the number of times we've actually found a reason and the time/spare apm to use this tactic.

@Jip

I can't understand how you all want to spent time debating a 'feature' of the game that you practically never use

I am concerned about this change because it fits in a larger pattern of changes that I feel are not good long-term for the health of the game.

One of the most enjoyable things about the original Supcom:FA was the way that the different factions have their own peculiarities, and the way that those interact with eachother. I've mentioned in several previous discussion that I am really not stoked seeing the balance team homogenize the factions and removing all of these gimmicks. Not all features of the game have to be used regularly to remain in game, as demonstrated by the continued existence of firebeetles.

@SpikeyNoob

... Should we really keep strange edge cases...

Yes.

Is this really something that makes you concerned about the long term health of the game? This weird unknown interaction that only someone as committed to uef knowledge as stryker could notice. Its not like we are removing the ability to use deceivers in transports or even stingers. You could still make a gunship snipe that depends on ur stealthed t2 gunship mass. But we just dont think it makes sense for important high HP experimental to be able to generate stealth that cannot be sniped. Maybe you could put a continental with a deceiver next to ur czar. I don't understand how this can be seen as some sort of faction diversity killer.

I believe the blinking lights was actually talked about before changed, it irc tanked performance so there was actually a reason.

We only have one person using the stealthed Atlantis so far

If we are removing bugs, factory attack move has to go.

It's still intuitive. Deceiver works in transports, as opposed to shields -> transport is docked -> deceiver still works. At least for Atlantis, CZAR is a bit too big for the stealth field hiding it to be believable.

@spikeynoob said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

Is this really something that makes you concerned about the long term health of the game? This weird unknown interaction that only someone as committed to uef knowledge as stryker could notice. Its not like we are removing the ability to use deceivers in transports or even stingers. You could still make a gunship snipe that depends on ur stealthed t2 gunship mass. But we just dont think it makes sense for important high HP experimental to be able to generate stealth that cannot be sniped. Maybe you could put a continental with a deceiver next to ur czar. I don't understand how this can be seen as some sort of faction diversity killer.

Again, for the people in the back:

I am concerned about this change because it fits in a larger pattern of changes that I feel are not good long-term for the health of the game.

The decission to fix this 'bug' isn't made in a vacuum.

Why should a niche situation that few people know about (that is not intuitive) allow units that are balanced independently to gain abilities that are special to other units.

I reject that it's not intuitive, and to answer the question: because knowledge of the game and the complex interactions that are possible should be rewarded.

@indexlibrorum said in Deceiver < Stinger < Atlantis / Czar Do you think this should be a bug or a feature?:

because knowledge of the game and the complex interactions that are possible should be rewarded.

Why does everybody complain about build orders then? Or even about map familiarity, quoting the map generator as "leveling the playing field"?
It seems that in fact people dislike knowledge rewards because they don't like losing due to a knowledge disadvantage.