Adjust Recall
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I understand the whole argument against recall being as it is because it does suck being forced to give up. But it sucks more being stuck in a game because someone wants to waste your time. And honestly it happened fairly often before recall was implemented, far more often than someone being upset about being forced to give up a lost game early.
It's obviously not the perfect solution, but I do think it's the best we have right now.
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Why does it have to be a blanket rule? The people who complain about having their time wasted on average seem to be higher ranked players. It's also a valid criticism that in a 3v3 2 players can force a defeat from what is a potentially winnable position. At lower ranks of play the game is far more likely to be winnable from a seemingly poor position due to the greater potential for mistakes from the enemy team (since they're lower ranked for a reason).
It therefore seems ripe for a compromise approach that pleases more people than the current system. For example, in 4+ team games it works as is currently the case, and in <=2 team games it needs 100% agreement and/or just isn't an option.
Then, for 3v3s, it's only possible for 2 players to force the third to lose if any of the following is the case:
- It's a custom match (given it is likely to take longer to organise than a TMM match); or
- The average rating of the players is > x (e.g. >=1.4k? 1.5? As a lower ranked player I dont know the point at which games take forever to find); or
- The team that wants to recall has in total 75% or less of the mass income of the enemy team
To make things even simpler, it could just be a single rule - in a 3v3, you can only have 2 players force a recall if the team has 75% or less mass income vs the enemy.
While there will be plenty of cases where you can have equal eco vs the enemy team but clearly have lost, I'd have thought it very rare for it to take long at all for the clearly winning team to be able to translate their presumably dominant map position into an eco lead. So, it's not possible for one person to delay the team from a clearly lost position, but it's also not possible for 2 people to force someone to concede a winnable position.
In terms of implementation it'd need to only say 'recall vote successful' or 'recall vote unsuccessful' and not say why/how many people voted for it, to avoid being able to use the voting system to get information on how good your team's eco is vs the enemy.
I understand the argument for recall being it sucks to waste a long time on a foregone conclusion, but it sucks far more being forced to concede a game that could have been won (meaning all the time up until that point arguably was wasted as well). Especially since at lower ranks the players who want to recall are more likely to be able to find a new game if they leave the current one and rejoin the queue (TMM).
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This is why high ranks should be allowed to base ctrl k
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no
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I never understood the the idea of: The game is pretty much in the bag so just quit now coz anything beyond this point is a waste of time.
I guess your goal while playing FAF is not to have fun, but only to win? And if you lose you don't have fun?
Just because you are losing doesn't mean you can't have fun. And if you arent having fun while you are winning but haven't won yet, then you need to look to yourself and ask yourself why aren't you having fun
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Ah yes let me fight for 15 more minutes while literally nothing I do will have any impact to the game. So much fun to sweat my ass of for 15min straight just to see it had 0 impact no matter what I did.
Guess that's the "Just snipe the other ACUs duhh"-mentality -
Recall is great and so is forcing a stubborn time waster to quit the game.
I would agree though that it can sometimes feel that a recall vote comes out of nowhere, e.g. for the one player on the team that isn't mega crushed and hence hasn't realized yet that their team is losing super hard.
Sadly, I don't have a good suggestion on how to improve on that besides using the chat and zooming out more.
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Are there any numbers available on how many games vote for/end in recall?
(As much as I love the "actually you're dead fucking wrong" dialectic.)
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I will just post this:
"A failed 4-1 surrender vote in ranked has a 97% loss rate"
"I can give a bit more insight on this data, since I pulled it (I also moonlight as a data analyst in addition to my day job :D)
3.3% is the correct number
Of 4 vote failed early FF's, a significant number get dragged out:
However, if a game ends before 21 minutes, ~90% are held hostage (45% get FF 20'd, 50% end naturally by 20 [open mid or just lose])
80% of the games resolve by 25 minutes
Games that make it to 30 minutes have a 10% winrate
Games that made it to 40 minutes had a 45% winrate (but the incidence was very low)While the "come back from behind, win at 45 minutes" moments are some of the highest moments in League, the vast vast majority of the cases are experiences where the majority of the team doesn't want to play the game out and are trapped in a suboptimal experience."
Some might go, but it's league of legends mimimimi. Well I could argue that it's pretty similar experience both in faf and league, as both feel oppressive to play from behind while also having more than few comeback mechanics for the losing team. Like bounties in league and reclaim from bad attacks in faf.
Imo it's pretty clear that recall have to exist as a way out of being trapped by people in games you deem unsalvageable. Even more so when the community is so small that one dude taking hostage other 4 players can mean not having another game for half an hour as he busy jacking himself off to the thought of being featured in another gyle cast comeback...
Also post for those interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/12cmyue/a_failed_41_surrender_vote_in_ranked_has_a_97/
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@firv said in Adjust Recall:
I never understood the the idea of: The game is pretty much in the bag so just quit now coz anything beyond this point is a waste of time.
I guess your goal while playing FAF is not to have fun, but only to win? And if you lose you don't have fun?
Just because you are losing doesn't mean you can't have fun. And if you arent having fun while you are winning but haven't won yet, then you need to look to yourself and ask yourself why aren't you having fun
Fun comes from having a chance at winning. If that wasn’t necessary, we wouldn’t have every 5th dude under 800 rating complaining about smurfs that ruin their game. Likewise when the chance of losing is gone there isn’t anything engaging in the game anymore. The people complaining about this have gone through the motions of how to end these games hundreds upon hundreds of times. It’s like complaining at chess GMs for resigning early when there is a CHANCE that someone makes an obvious blunder. That’s why people would rather move on to a new game where both exist again.
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@xiaomao said in Adjust Recall:
Some might go, but it's league of legends mimimimi.
Your foresight is impeccable and without peer. Let me get right on that;
You cannot take data from one game to analyze another, especially not when the games are so dissimilar. Additionally, you're gonna have to take into account that just by calling the vote, the result of the game is influenced, because the people that vote to surrender but are veto'd will not have the same motivation to keep playing for a win.
Imo it's pretty clear that recall have to exist as a way out of being trapped by people in games you deem unsalvageable.
...one dude taking hostage other 4 players can mean not having another game for half an hour as he busy jacking himself off to the thought of being featured in another gyle cast comeback...
Everyone seems to keep going on about how people are 'stuck' in a won game, and how it's a huge waste of time. But you can't have it both: is the game clearly won, or do you need to play for another half hour? Because if you're in a stalemate for 30 minutes, you're in game-ender territory.
If you're part of the enemy team and you need another goddamn half hour to close the game, then the game wasn't over in the first place.
If you're in the team that is losing and you think the game unsalvageable, leave.
@ftxcommando said in Adjust Recall:
It’s like complaining at chess GMs for resigning early when there is a CHANCE that someone makes an obvious blunder.
We're not arguing that surrendering is bad, we're arguing that forcing OTHER PEOPLE to surrender is bad.
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Well you kinda responded to me responding to a guy saying he doesn't understand the mentality of quitting games early so we were talking about surrendering being bad?
My arguments for enforcing a surrender are the same utilitarian argument I said before.
If you want an example of a game that is going to take quite a bit to end. You have situations of a person being down to some 20% map control fortress but no eco advantage. Regardless of what he can do, the enemy will be able to do it faster and with more stuff. So now you got to spend 10 minutes breaking down this base that is getting more and more defenses added to it because the guy isn't actually trying to play for a win condition, just make everyone waste as much time as possible building up the mass to break through it with a right click push.
This isn't even a particularly rare situation. There is no thinking involved. Besides me deciding what fun investment of 100k mass will kill the enemy. Thrilling.
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@ftxcommando said in Adjust Recall:
So now you got to spend 10 minutes breaking down this base
Right, so then there's the argument: you think that 10 minutes of your time is more important that the other player's wish to not be forcefully kicked out from a game.
I disagree. -
Now you're being dishonest. It isn't a 2v2. If it was, I couldn't force the dude to recall. It's a 3v3+ where 2, 3, 4, etc people don't want to waste 10 minutes of their lives and you think 1 or 2 dudes have higher time value.
I'm the guy that holds basically all time of near equivalent value, though with a slight bias towards those in the current game since recall requires a supermajority not just a majority.
If you mean that I'm on the team that has to slowly grind this guy down, then yeah it makes me mad. But I'm not asking for me to be able to force this dude to recall, I'll just tell him he's an asshole.
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@ftxcommando Fair enough, though remember that teammates can leave as they please, it's only the enemy's team time that's at risk of being wasted.
Though the core argument remains: someone is forced from their game against their will, because the enemy has to work to close the game. I think that's not great, in essence for the same reason that control-K'ing your base is a banable offense.
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@indexlibrorum said in Adjust Recall:
@ftxcommando Fair enough, though remember that teammates can leave as they please, it's only the enemy's team time that's at risk of being wasted.
Yeah but faf doesn’t have a huge player base and those people who are dead and leave might need that game to end to get enough people to play another game. I’ve had one lovey person decide they didn’t want to leave and instead played survival for as long as they could. As a result myself and 3 other people from that game were stuck lobby simming for another 20 minutes. In this particular example it took so long that I actually ran too low on time and straight up couldn’t play another game of faf that day, and all 7 other people were annoyed by him including the enemy team.
One example, but that to at least some degree happens regularly when someone decides they want to hold up people. Just leaving the game doesn’t mean you can get another without the people stuck in the game.
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@indexlibrorum said in Adjust Recall:
@xiaomao said in Adjust Recall:
You cannot take data from one game to analyze another, especially not when the games are so dissimilar. Additionally, you're gonna have to take into account that just by calling the vote, the result of the game is influenced, because the people that vote to surrender but are veto'd will not have the same motivation to keep playing for a win.
Oh, but of course you can. The psychology behind is exactly the same. If people vote FF they want out, same for FAF. If I vote FF it means I want out and go play next one. But unfortunately the amount of FAF players is so low that I will have to wait for the people from this game anyway(or risk getting being put in another shitter game with low ranks). So you either politely force a quit by recall or you do the ctrl+k manouver in case you have one shitter not willing to let it go. The other option which for some reason you prefer is me afking in base doing bois like a retard instead of getting another shot at actually good game(yes I'm not giving you my base anyway unless you have good idea how to play the game).
And no, the games aren't really that dissimilar considering how the income works in both and how map control translates into it and choking out the opposition. If anything the ways you can get ahead are funnily enough very similar be it by forcing enemy to try make proactive plays as you grow the eco lead or by choking them out through proper map control.
Everyone seems to keep going on about how people are 'stuck' in a won game, and how it's a huge waste of time. But you can't have it both: is the game clearly won, or do you need to play for another half hour? Because if you're in a stalemate for 30 minutes, you're in game-ender territory.
If you're part of the enemy team and you need another goddamn half hour to close the game, then the game wasn't over in the first place.
If you're in the team that is losing and you think the game unsalvageable, leave.
There's difference between steamroll and being slowly choked out of the game. Playing for the sake of enemy team getting bored with you and making huge mistake is one of the most shitty ways to enjoy the game one can find.
Especially when there is no way to win but enemy throwing their lead. Which doesn't happen nearly often enough to be worth keeping everyone hostage and barring them from getting another shot at decent game.Like I really don't understand why do people in this community find this autistic idea of building up robot armies for 1h fun even when they have no clear shot at winning, and more importantly that they don't care about the other 7 people in the lobby who'd rather go and have an engaging game rather than this snooze fest of choking the last player out.
If you're part of the enemy team and you need another goddamn half hour to close the game, then the game wasn't over in the first place.
Unfortunately we are playing FAF. A game that MASSIVELY promotes a defensive play with how it works. And the longer it goes the more frustrating it becomes. After all, that failed attack might have just become mass donation. And the longer it goes the higher the risk, and more time is needed to make a sure win push. Which artificialy prolongs the games even more. Especially if you roll map that allows you to turtle. Making the loss just a boring matter of scaling up eco and stuff with no way for other party to win unless you go for the 4fun land push.
If you're in the team that is losing and you think the game unsalvageable, leave.
Now if only that meant there's gonna be enough players for the next game. Well, fuck me it's FAF so we have like 30 players to play with anyway... Half is offline, the other half afk leaving us with the few who got a game being stuck with that one dude who is aiming for the CERTIFIED GYLE COMEBACK.
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@ftxcommando said in Adjust Recall:
Fun comes from having a chance at winning. If that wasn’t necessary, we wouldn’t have every 5th dude under 800 rating complaining about smurfs that ruin their game. Likewise when the chance of losing is gone there isn’t anything engaging in the game anymore. The people complaining about this have gone through the motions of how to end these games hundreds upon hundreds of times. It’s like complaining at chess GMs for resigning early when there is a CHANCE that someone makes an obvious blunder. That’s why people would rather move on to a new game where both exist again.
If fun comes from chance of winning then 50% of the games you play arent fun?
Why does the game become less fun when your chances of winning are getting lower?
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It isn't fun when my chance of winning is essentially 0, yes. Games I lost or won are fun when they're competitive. Once the outcome is written in stone I do not find it interesting to go through the motions of ending it. The only way to make it fun is to intentionally drag it out even more by doing incredibly dumb stuff as a way to end the game. Like killing people with ASF crash damage.
