Now that we seem to have returned to a constructive conversation;
Satisfactory (the game) has similar issues with bug reports and communications. They've set up this website, which mirrors Github in how bugs can be reported and labelled, but also has a voting system and some other tweaks that make it easier for people to keep track of common issues.
Does something like this solve some or most of the issues you raised, code?
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
@indexlibrorum said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
Now that we seem to have returned to a constructive conversation;
Satisfactory (the game) has similar issues with bug reports and communications. They've set up this website, which mirrors Github in how bugs can be reported and labelled, but also has a voting system and some other tweaks that make it easier for people to keep track of common issues.
Does something like this solve some or most of the issues you raised, code?
I did not know about this and this is pretty nice
@thecodemander If you have some time, perhaps you and whoever else is interested in this topic can take a look at what this website does well, and which features are missing.
From what I followed from the conversation above, one issue was that there are several locations where bugs are discussed and reported, and that this fragmentation leads to issues with communication. Does a structure like this solve these and other mentioned issues, and can we centralize communication around this one location?
I haven't got the foggiest idea of how much effort it is to set something like this up, whether this needs to be created from scratch, or if some kind of open-source solution to this exists. I'd be surprised if the dev team has the manpower and time available to set something like this up easily, but maybe I'm wrong.
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
From what I followed from the conversation above, one issue was that there are several locations where bugs are discussed and reported, and that this fragmentation leads to issues with communication. Does a structure like this solve these and other mentioned issues, and can we centralize communication around this one location?
The fragmentation exists because Discord is accessible, but isn't as easy to properly track (large) bugs or features in. And Github is good for tracking issues, but people usually find it too much a burden to take the time to make a bug report on it.
There is no further fragmentation than that.
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
Well there is also the argument that there is the technical help on this forum which kind of got replaced by discord unfortunately. But yes I would agree that the fragmentation is rather low. With individual/user issues on the discord and more systematic issues on the github issues.
The forums has the same problem as Discord in my opinion though: difficult to properly track (large) bugs or features in.
@IndexLibrorum Looking at your suggestion. How is this different from using Github to track the issues?
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
@jip An upvote system, for one. Might be more user-friendly for people who do not code, but you'd have to ask the community.
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
@sheikah Discord is a gaping all-consuming void in which issues are either buried in spam, or straight up disappear never to be seen again. I have a hard time finding my own older bug reports, even knowing what I am looking for and certain of their existence, which isn't helped much by the godawful search system. And may the gods have mercy on the soul of whoever needs any information mentioned in any channel besides tech-support-forums. Finding anything in general-chat is not unlike trying to find a lost skier buried under an avalanche. The term 'excavation' comes to mind.
Then you have a forum, a Github, and a Zulip. The latter of which players, apparently, need to stay up to date with as a requirement to be informed enough—see image. Cue strong flashback to a certain scene from The Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy.
“But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.”
“Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.”
“But the plans were on display …”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.
I think that's all. Maybe. I am not certain, because I know there's a bounty hunting thing somewhere as well, Zulip had never crossed my horizon before two weeks ago, and my memory isn't good enough to be sure that I haven't forgotten another site or app or place.
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
Thank you for taking a screenshot of a message of a heated discussion, and then taking that out of context.
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
@indexlibrorum said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
Satisfactory (the game) has similar issues with bug reports and communications. They've set up this website, which mirrors Github in how bugs can be reported and labelled, but also has a voting system and some other tweaks that make it easier for people to keep track of common issues.
It seems like it is similar to this thing we have. I don't know why it was abandoned and if we even have access to it. I think Downlord set it up years ago.
maybe we can get accses to it again ? and seems somthing that could be usefull to have and start using more
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock
To comment on the process of bug reports: The fragmentation exists because there is no single platform that covers all our needs. The issue tracking happens on github, because there we have the tools to organize them and link them to the relevant code changes. The issue there is that 99% of FAF users don't have a github account.
The discord help/bug reporting section extists, because a lot of people are in discord and are asking for help in discord, so we set something up to help them right there.
The bug reporting on the forum exists because people might not have or want a discord account. You can use your FAF account on the forum, so everybody that potentially has issues, already has an account for a relevant place to get help.
Zulip exists as a chat for developers. It is not at all a requirement to be there to report a bug. I don't really know why it snuck up into this conversation, but I just want to make it clear that the existence of zulip is entirely irrelevant for the average FAF user.
It is also not true that you have to check in in all of these areas to get help. One is enough. The purpose of the forum and discord is to bring people in contact with developers so they can add issues to the tracker on github, if the users themselves can't do it, which is totally fine. Of course if you are already familiar with the environment you can skip all that and create an issue directly on github.
@jip said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
Thank you for taking a screenshot of a message of a heated discussion, and then taking that out of context.
I disagree this was taken out of context. The picture supports that A) Important Dev stuff is being communicated on another external platform and B) that it is something that was new to a lot of us. (And I added the meme to lighten up the conversation a tad)
Let me know how you feel I misconstrued your intent and I will correct my comment.
@blackyps said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
@indexlibrorum said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
Satisfactory (the game) has similar issues with bug reports and communications. They've set up this website, which mirrors Github in how bugs can be reported and labelled, but also has a voting system and some other tweaks that make it easier for people to keep track of common issues.
It seems like it is similar to this thing we have. I don't know why it was abandoned and if we even have access to it. I think Downlord set it up years ago.
Welp, this was why I added
I think that's all. Maybe. I am not certain, because I know there's a bounty hunting thing somewhere as well, Zulip had never crossed my horizon before two weeks ago, and my memory isn't good enough to be sure that I haven't forgotten another site or app or place.
to my post.
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
The FAF feedback site is made with www.userreport.com - If we do not have access to the original FAF related account anymore, we can simply create a new one. This feedback site https://feedback.userreport.com/7a3715db-9cd2-49ec-bebd-b5cfd752647b/#ideas/popular and style looks promising and probably like a suitable solution.
@indexlibrorum said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
I disagree this was taken out of context. The picture supports that A) Dev stuff is being communicated on another external platform and B) that it is something that was new to a lot of us. (And I added the meme to lighten up the conversation a tad)
Let me know how you feel I misconstrued your intent and I will correct my comment.
Do I really need to write this out?
That screenshot was taking in a long discussion on your clan server. Any snippet of a long discussion is automatically taken out of context, regardless of what you're trying to convey. But not only that, you're using it to try to convey some point that is literally not what the discussion at that moment was about.
At that point in the discussion some members in your clan server were being excessively rude on the status quo of the client, and in particular on the status of the connection between players. With thanks to this announcement we now all know why that is. But back then we had the policy to only share that information on a need to know basis. Effectively only the core contributors of FAF were aware of what has been announced. And they knew because the place the announced content was being discussed is on ... Zulip!
Back to the discussion. At that point I was trying to convey to some members of your clan server that there's more going on then what meets the eyes. But I couldn't just disclose what that was, as at the time it was on a need to know basis.
Meanwhile our development team got verbally shit on, multiple times. It was a great discussion /s. The next day or so I left your clan server because of it.
Back to the point you're trying to convey: Zulip is not fragmenting the information space. You don't need to be there to be informed about 95% of what happens on FAF. Almost everything we do is on Github, open for everyone to view. Any discussion on Zulip usually reflects work that end up in pull requests. It just is a place to have in-depth technical discussions in an environment that looks and feels like Slack. I also explained on your clan server 
And I'll be honest: I'm not super hyped on the idea of this example tool of Satisfactory. To me it feels like it would actually fragment the public information space to solve a problem that, in all honesty, only your clan appears to perceive at this moment. There are three primary places where people can report issues:
The former is also referenced in-game, where there is a 'report a bug' button in the changelog window:
Which brings you to this place:
And that mentions at the bottom the same locations to report a bug. This has worked fine for me. And it would work fine for you too, if...
@thecodemander said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
If Im talking directly to someone inside the FAF organisation, either on VC, or in game, or in DMs or on another discord or via morse code shouldnt really matter.
you'd actually use the proper channels to report your issues instead of whatever all these are
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
@jip said in What is the biggest issue that plagues FAF in your opinion?:
That screenshot was taking in a long discussion on your clan server. Any snippet of a long discussion is automatically taken out of context, regardless of what you're trying to convey. But not only that, you're using it to try to convey some point that is literally not what the discussion at that moment was about.
I disagree with this premise, because you're essentially stating that you cannot look at separate facts mentioned in an conversation without discussing the whole conversation.
Example: imagine a discussion on how to farm tomatoes. If 90% of the discussion is about soil and water requirements, but at one point someone mentions "by the way, tomatoes, which are a member of the nightshade family like potatoes and eggplants, are technically a fruit. This is why soil requires blah blah...", it is not disingenuous to later say "Oh by the way, this person said that tomatoes are part of the nightshade family".
You do not need the full context of the conversation to refer to something that was mentioned, because specific facts can be true regardless of their context.
During the discussion, you mentioned that to be informed about the specific issue we would have to visit Zulip. In my comment above I refer to this as an example of how information is fragmented. I remain of the opinion that nothing about that misconstrues any of the points you raised in the discussion on our server.
Back to the point you're trying to convey: Zulip is not fragmenting the information space. You don't need to be there to be informed about 95% of what happens on FAF. Almost everything we do is on Github, open for everyone to view. Any discussion on Zulip usually reflects work that end up in pull requests. It just is a place to have in-depth technical discussions in an environment that looks and feels like Slack.
Fair enough, thank you for clearing that up.
I also explained on your clan server
Not to the point where it was clear to me, but discussing this in detail is best left for a PM in discord, I think.
in all honesty, only your clan appears to perceive at this moment.
First of all, I am writing these comments and expressing my opinion independently from Code. I don't much appreciate this attempt of grouping us together, as it comes across to me that this is meant to imply that the criticism is lesser in some way coming from one group or 'direction'. As if therefore it should be dismissed out of hand.
Secondly, the fact that 2-3 members of my clan are currently vocally expressing their frustration with the problem doesn't meant the problem is limited to only our group. If you were to ask a representative sample of the community, I believe you'll find the sentiment is commonly shared. Just reading this thread should convince you that it is patently unclear for many people which bugs are reported and acknowledged, which are being work on, and what the status of that process is.
Lastly, the report bug button is neat, but I wouldn't be able to find you the button if you forced me to with a gun to my head.
I want to reiterate that I am grateful for the work that is put into this project; the fact that FAF is going strong after the base game has basically died is a great achievement. I am not here to antagonize the volunteer devs, but to highlight what I think is an important issue and offer solutions to the problems as I see them.
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
@IndexLibrorum I don't want to spent further energy on this nonsense. I was hoping for an apology but instead I got a story where you confuse a fact with an interpretation.
If you were to ask a representative sample of the community, I believe you'll find the sentiment is commonly shared
You're not the first who tries to talk as if he or she knows what the community wants. You won't be the last. But everyone who tries it without doing the actual research is usually just wrong. And you're no exception
A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned
The screenshot is out of context because it doesn't tell us what you would be informed about on zulip. Without this context the screenshot only tells us that people get informed on zulip. Without any further context this is a useless statement. Everybody that reads it assumes that it is relevant to the discussion, so they infer that things relevant to them get discussed on zulip and then we arrive at a misleading conclusion because the context was missing.
Looking at this it seems that you also got this impression, maybe this is why you think it had enough context, because you made the same mistake assuming that zulip was relevant for normal players.
Then you have a forum, a Github, and a Zulip. The latter of which players, apparently, need to stay up to date with as a requirement to be informed enough—see image.
Anyway this seems to stray off-topic even further, I am open to discuss this further in PMs but this is not the place.
I mostly skipped parts of the posts by now because my time window is very close. What I'd like to say especially to @TheCodemander is the following:
You can not necessarily point new bugs to newer client versions, because the ecosystem all around has changed a lot.
Then there are setups like yours where the system behaves completely different from similar others. I for example do run everything on arch and cannot see a 3GB usage of RAM. But I also have seen my arch profile just break the file system with analysis of multiple weeks (expected hardware issues and everything) and as it turns just the user profile is broke and a new one works like a charm. This just happened 4 weeks ago. So any kind of development for end user deployment is a PITA and will always be.
Also there are issues we have no way to influence it. E.g. the Install4J updater permanently breaking installations on update...
Or the email system breaking because our bank blocks us out for no reason and we fail to pay it.
Furthermore FAF overall has accumulated a lot of technical complexity and technical debt. I know so many issues that I don't even know where to start or which to pick. Just assuming we could afford a part-time developer for 1 day per week, he'd have to focus on one thing leaving out all the rest.
For reference: The involved systems (not even tangling the underlying infrastructure) https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2944/is-it-a-badly-drawn-pentagram-to-summon-the-devil-no-it-s-a-faf-architecture-diagram
And my thoughts on impact of a paid developer here
Let's assume anybody brings in a paid developer for 1 day per week for a budget of like 200€ a month (thats would be a realistic limit at the current finances), all fine we can try it out. But I don't expect this to happen and I'd assume people overestimate the impact.
"Nerds have a really complicated relationship with change: Change is awesome when WE'RE the ones doing it. As soon as change is coming from outside of us it becomes untrustworthy and it threatens what we think of is the familiar."
– Benno Rice
