Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread
-
Feel free to provide any feedback here regarding the changes discussed on our github milestone. Keep in mind that all of these changes are subject to change.
-
S SpikeyNoob pinned this topic on
-
S SpikeyNoob referenced this topic on
-
Hath there no planned shifts for the land and air at this present moment?
-
@hinthunter we met for 3 hours sunday, so instead of extending it more we decided to hold another meeting next weekend. We will focus on other issues then.
-
May the common folk partake in these gatherings? @SpikeyNoob
-
@hinthunter Balance team meetings are kept internal. But all our ideas are in the milestone and I am pretty sure Farms will be hosting another stream to discuss changes once its all planned.
-
Atlantis smaller: No!
Atlantis bigger: Yes! -
I don’t see how the torp defense change stops you from being rushed. I don’t see it removing super early 3 frig rushes that lock you out of navy. Your 6-7 engies are still going to die even if they get 1 torp launcher up and your 1 maybe 2 facs are going to be groundfire locked. I see it making all in pushes on navy yards where you have a 5k-7k mass advantage harder because the 40-50 engies hiding behind factories can build a legion of torp defenses while your 10 navy facs continuously replace numbers faster than your enemy can reinforce themselves. I don’t see that as good for the game.
-
Almost all the changes sound good to me. Particularly like the buffs to T1-T2 torpedo launchers which at the moment are really bad and the only time I've seen them ahve tended to be low ranked players building them for little to no benefit.
Only one I dont like is the HARMS change given it is a big nerf and it presumably can still be ground fired. I'd rather the nerf was smaller to see how it fares (e.g. 40% build time reduction, 2k health reduction, or no build time reduction and no health reduction). At -4k it ends up having about the same health as a T2 torpedo launcher (6.4k for UEF) -
I don't see how the torpedo bomber and cruiser changes will help the interaction between cruisers and torp bombers. Decreasing the cruiser's range plays a huge role in this interaction, and reducing it so much will obviously mean less torpedo bombers will be required to snipe a cruiser, which kinda works against the cruiser HP increase and torp bomber damage decrease. Maybe these values do work towards improving interaction between torp/cruiser, would require some testing atleast. if this has been done already then ignore everything i said
The other stuff looks good to me
-
Not sure I'm a fan of how massive the HARM nerf is.
Also, I'd rather see T1/T2 torp lauchers be cheaper/faster to build than do more damage.
-
Are there any changes planned for the Soulripper? Currently feels too expensive for what it delivers.
"Design is an iterative process. The required number of iterations is one more than the number you have currently done. This is true at any point in time."
See all my projects:
-
I'm failing to see how the Atlantis's proposed changes will alleviate its issues.
Sure, the size change will help, but 10%... Well, we will have to see how that translates to in-game.Its main issue is its lack of specialization or role.
It's a unit that's trying to be an aircraft carrier and a sub - failing at both!
Also, not sure why one of the Atlantis's strengths, (a small benefit, to say the least), is being overshadowed by all carriers getting the same utility in vision/water vision.
~ Stryker
-
@maudlin27 said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Only one I dont like is the HARMS change given it is a big nerf and it presumably can still be ground fired. I'd rather the nerf was smaller to see how it fares (e.g. 40% build time reduction, 2k health reduction, or no build time reduction and no health reduction). At -4k it ends up having about the same health as a T2 torpedo launcher (6.4k for UEF)
Comparing the hp of above water and under water units doesn't work. T2 subs also have 1/5th the hp of destroyers
@waffelznoob said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
I don't see how the torpedo bomber and cruiser changes will help the interaction between cruisers and torp bombers. Decreasing the cruiser's range plays a huge role in this interaction, and reducing it so much will obviously mean less torpedo bombers will be required to snipe a cruiser, which kinda works against the cruiser HP increase and torp bomber damage decrease. Maybe these values do work towards improving interaction between torp/cruiser, would require some testing atleast. if this has been done already then ignore everything i said
Right now you need 4 torps(if all torps land their hit) to kill most cruisers, after this change you need 6 torps. The 15 range isn't gonna let you kill 2 more torps if they were coming for your cruiser even when kiting away so in a straight up torps vs cruiser matchup this is definitely a buff for the cruisers.
This means that torp micro is rewarded more since it's easier to go around the cruiser to snipe navy units at the edge of your navy formation but in a straight up battle you lose more torps.
It also incentivizes wanting a mix of cruisers and carriers in the t3 stage so you have cruisers for close up damage dealing and the carriers for longer range control.
Atleast, this is the intention/direction we want to go. Not gonna be perfect and work right away from the start ofcourse.
@indexlibrorum said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Are there any changes planned for the Soulripper? Currently feels too expensive for what it delivers.
No because we think it's in a decent state atm.
@comradestryker said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
I'm failing to see how the Atlantis's proposed changes will alleviate its issues.
Sure, the size change will help, but 10%... Well, we will have to see how that translates to in-game.Its main issue is its lack of specialization or role.
It's a unit that's trying to be an aircraft carrier and a sub - failing at both!Also, not sure why one of the Atlantis's strengths, (a small benefit, to say the least), is being overshadowed by all carriers getting the same utility in vision/water vision.
Idk why you think making it smaller and thus harder to hit while giving it a 16% speed increase isn't gonna help it.
It's a unit that doesn't specialize because it does multiple things yes. Unless you want to remove features you can't buff them by much at all otherwise it can become broken a lot faster than you imagine.
vision/water vision is not something that should be locked behind a faction. This is to make carriers from other factions have a more supportive role against something like stealth/subs.
-
-
@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Idk why you think making it smaller and thus harder to hit while giving it a 16% speed increase isn't gonna help it.
It's a unit that doesn't specialize because it does multiple things yes. Unless you want to remove features you can't buff them by much at all otherwise it can become broken a lot faster than you imagine.
vision/water vision is not something that should be locked behind a faction. This is to make carriers from other factions have a more supportive role against something like stealth/subs.
Perhaps, you misunderstood me.
I never said these changes weren't going to help.
That's the point of the changes, to begin with, right? To help?I said I didn't see how it would alleviate its (main) issues.
The size change is welcome, as I stated in my post, it's quite a big target.
The speed change is welcome, as well, as it is quite slow.My concern was that the unit itself barely classifies as an experimental,
yet, it lacks strength in either of the roles that it tries to fulfill.Most, if not all, other multi-role units in this game excel in at least one of their roles.
For example, the Aeon T3 Gunship.
Moderate Air-to-ground capability, but impressive air-to-air combatability.As for vision, I can understand that being helpful to all navies.
Though, I stray to see how it could differentiate the Atlantis as an Experimental.I'm not saying these features should be limited to one faction, but I also fail to see; as my point in the sentence above.
Shouldn't an Experimental be... you know... slightly better than a unit in a tech level below?Wouldnt it make more sense to have the carriers with slightly less vision than the Atlantis?
not matching it?
~ Stryker
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
-
No, experimentals shouldn’t be better than their mass equivalence in t3 units.
-
@comradestryker said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
Idk why you think making it smaller and thus harder to hit while giving it a 16% speed increase isn't gonna help it.
It's a unit that doesn't specialize because it does multiple things yes. Unless you want to remove features you can't buff them by much at all otherwise it can become broken a lot faster than you imagine.
vision/water vision is not something that should be locked behind a faction. This is to make carriers from other factions have a more supportive role against something like stealth/subs.
Perhaps, you misunderstood me.
I never said these changes weren't going to help.
That's the point of the changes, to begin with, right? To help?I said I didn't see how it would alleviate its (main) issues.
It being a slow bulky unit with bad maneuverability has always been the main issue.
My concern was that the unit itself barely classifies as an experimental,
yet, it lacks strength in either of the roles that it tries to fulfill.No idea why you think it barely classifies as one. At the same cost as 4 subhunters you get 1.25x more range and 10x more hp. When you surface it you get a carrier with double the hp of other carriers. More over it's like 10x the size of the 2nd largest sub.
Does it not qualify as one according to you because it's too weak? Does that mean Novaxes didn't classify as an t4 until they were balanced years ago? Does that mean the ripper didn't classify as an t4 until a year ago?
Most, if not all, other multi-role units in this game excel in at least one of their roles.
For example, the Aeon T3 Gunship.
Moderate Air-to-ground capability, but impressive air-to-air combatability.You're wrong. Restorers are worse at anything they do compared to their counterparts. They roughly have half the dps of a broadsword when shooting at ground targets and less than half the dps of asf when shooting at air. They are still good however because they are flexible.
Shouldn't an Experimental be... you know... slightly better than a unit in a tech level below?Also as ftx said t4's are never better than
As ftx said: no. All land t4's lose to mass cybran t1 maa spam. This doesn't mean they aren't good.
-
I think reducing the cost and/or build time of torp Launchers would work better than their dmg buff unless you are wanting people to build them before they get rushed
-
@thewheelie said:
Comparing the hp of above water and under water units doesn't work. T2 subs also have 1/5th the hp of destroyers
Groundfiring mobile units is much harder than structures. Besides which, the key point is reducing the health of a unit for which health is highly relevant by almost 40% is a massive nerf, whether the unit is submersible or not, and an improvement to build time doesn't come close to compensating for it.
M27AI and M28AI developer; Devlogs and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v71-devlog
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5331/m28ai-devlog-v150 -
@ftxcommando said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
No, experimentals shouldn’t be better than their mass equivalence in t3 units.
@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
As ftx said: no. All land t4's lose to mass cybran t1 maa spam. This doesn't mean they aren't good.
I agree, but that is not anywhere near what I said or mentioned.
I said: "Shouldn't an Experimental be" ... "slightly better than a unit in a tech level below?"I did not mention mass equivalence. I mentioned tech.
In layman's terms: T1 < T2 < T3 < T4
@thewheelie said in Pending Balance Changes Feedback Thread:
You're wrong. Restorers are worse at anything they do compared to their counterparts. They roughly have half the dps of a broadsword when shooting at ground targets and less than half the dps of asf when shooting at air. They are still good however because they are flexible.
They're obviously not going to be GREAT at either role.
But they're more built for one role rather than another.
That was my point.A unit specialized in a specific role is obviously going to be better.
But Multi-role units have mixed capability, having a hand in both areas.This is why certain units are good investments, until you engage a dedicated unit in that role.
Like my Restorer example.
Or Fighter bombers.
Or Mercies and Swifties (Granted these aren't Multi-Role but they are dedicated for Air-to-air and Air-to-ground which is what makes them better in that role.)
~ Stryker
