Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion
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Remove all natural reclaim from the game for perfect no BO gameplay poggers
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Setons (all maps really) are "fine" in TMM if you only look at the >1.8k crowd.
Even if they don't have a BO, none of them will get navy locked at minute 6 or surprised by a strat at min 10.
And even if they do, or get out eco'd, they can just play unconventionally and still have good game.In the <1.5k range though, Setons becomes complete trash if you have an unequal number of setoners on each team.
In that range, a player with an air BO vs a player without one ends the game.
Not in a fun way, it will still take 30 min until the score screen shows, but it will be essentially over before the first order was given.If you must add setons into the pool, please only do so in the highest possible rating bracket only.
Even then I doubt it will be fun though. -
Hmmmm, @archsimkat @Tagada perhaps we could wait to put Setons in until the 'average rating' is used rather lowest? I am still in favor of trying it once more this January, but def feeling the lower-level pain...
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Definetely should start by putting it in the highest bracket first. I don't see how average rating will help lower rated players not get Seton's, it will actually do the opposite
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@tagada said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
Definetely should start by putting it in the highest bracket first. I don't see how average rating will help lower rated players not get Seton's, it will actually do the opposite
In current, the map is selected based on the rating of the lowest rated player in queue, correct?
If the "use the average rating of the queue (all 8 players)" is used how will that not help prevent lower rated from getting Setons? Am I misunderstanding the intent?
Let us say we have a queue with the following players:
Team 1: 700, 1200, 1500, 2000
Team 2: 1200, 1300, 1800, 1600With the current algorithm to determine the map used:
The map to be selected will simply be drawn based on the 700-rated player, and prevents using a 1500+ map.
You can see this is working as intended as a match with 836 rated player brought in a queue of highly-rated players here: https://replay.faforever.com/18784598
We discussed in the matchmaking team channel how this is undesirable and higher-rated 1500+ should not be getting maps in the lower rated brackets.
With the desired "queue average rating" algorithm to determine the map used:
Queue's ratings: 700 + 1200 + 1500 + 2000 + 1200 + 1300 + 1800 + 1600 = 11,300
Queue's avg rating: 1,412.5
As discussed in our request with the dev / client team, this would not allow Corinas Hourglass to be selected for the linked replay. Instead, you would see maps in the 1000-1500 or above as Corinas Hourglass is only applied for a rating of <500 and 500-100
Source: current 4v4 tmm pool bracket
So @Tagada , @BlackYps @Sheikah can you tell me why Tagada is thinking it would not help to use average rating?
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Because it will be possible for an 800 rated player to get setons while with the current min system it would be impossible.
Change the ratings a little in the example you used and they could get maps from the 1500+ pool.
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If there is a 700 rated player in 1500 average game then the system already fucked up. This is one of the reason I stopped playing at all, cuz honestly it was just not worth it when every second game you have people vastly under your own rating.
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@casternumerouno said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
If there is a 700 rated player in 1500 average game then the system already fucked up. This is one of the reason I stopped playing at all, cuz honestly it was just not worth it when every second game you have people vastly under your own rating.
Could you also state that here in this thread to BlackYPS request as to whether people would be willing to accept the time increase?
IMO, i would rather wait and get a good game than just be depressed. it is getting really awful to the point where I am playing 1v1 again.... : D
At this point, I am very convinced after seeing replies here and talking to people that the TMM is just getting a worse and worse future if we keep allowing such poorly balanced games.
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@sheikah said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
Because it will be possible for an 800 rated player to get setons while with the current min system it would be impossible.
Change the ratings a little in the example you used and they could get maps from the 1500+ pool.
Yes, good point; however, you also need to implement the rating difference code to disallow such a large skill discrepancy.
800s and 2000s should not be in the same game, end of story.
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@morax Can you get stats on how many people ‘give up’ on waiting for a match on TMM (ideally also historically before the recent changes)? My worry is that further reducing rating differences allowed risks making TMM worse by making the wait times so long that fewer people try and get a game leading to a vicious cycle.
Also my understanding is some of the larger rating differences mentioned here are due to a bug - my comments are for if the intention is to go beyond fixing the bug and make it take longer for most games to find a match.
M27AI and M28AI developer; Devlogs and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v71-devlog
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/5331/m28ai-devlog-v130 -
@maudlin27 said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
@morax Can you get stats on how many people ‘give up’ on waiting for a match on TMM (ideally also historically before the recent changes)? My worry is that further reducing rating differences allowed risks making TMM worse by making the wait times so long that fewer people try and get a game leading to a vicious cycle.
Also my understanding is some of the larger rating differences mentioned here are due to a bug - my comments are for if the intention is to go beyond fixing the bug and make it take longer for most games to find a match.
Sure, there is certainly a trade-off to consider. How much time is too much? In most of my recent discussions it seems that people are more annoyed that there simply IS a time to wait while in other games you get a match in almost no time.
Rocket League (i don't really play it) takes like 3 seconds, CS:GO or Destiny 2 PVP is usually less than a couple minutes.
Given we have so little people that play FAF I imagine 5 minutes is not that big a deal, and it is more about how many people are actually searching rather the parameters used in the code.
Even in current I know archsimkat and Blodir for instance have to search for hours to get a game due to the timezone. At that point, it is kind of a lost cause and does not seem to justify it hurting the quality of games for people WHO DO have enough searching.
I know that really sucks for folks in bad timezones, but I will try and work it out with others to see how long the wait times are, and what they would be should this get implemented.
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I support 100%!
It's one of the most, if not the most popular 4v4 maps in supreme commander history!
Seton's is a perfectly balanced 20x20 map with all aspects of the game included (land, air, navy), with great potential for game-ending units being made, which are never not fun.
Add it!
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@morax Please don't decide the fate of adding it to tmm solely on the extreme poultry few that bother to find and reply to this post. Just add it. It's 1 map, of many. Except it just so happens to be one of the most popular maps in the history of the game, it makes perfect sense to have it in the occasional pool.
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@nvpiurgbp0uiwrbf said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
@morax Please don't decide the fate of adding it to tmm solely on the extreme poultry few that bother to find and reply to this post. Just add it. It's 1 map, of many. Except it just so happens to be one of the most popular maps in the history of the game, it makes perfect sense to have it in the occasional pool.
It is in the up and coming pool. We will reevaluate once January goes by.
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I see it's already added, but I'll add my 2 cents.
I vote no. If I want to play setons I can join a custom or host one myself that will more than likely be much better balanced than anything TMM can throw together. In fact, I get so tired of playing Setons it's been the reason I've quit playing FaF for months at time more than once. If I stumble on it in TMM, it's probably the only map I would actually just alt-f4 because of. I like TMM because it gives lesser-played maps a chance. There's just no need to add Setons.
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@morax said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
@nvpiurgbp0uiwrbf said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
@morax Please don't decide the fate of adding it to tmm solely on the extreme poultry few that bother to find and reply to this post. Just add it. It's 1 map, of many. Except it just so happens to be one of the most popular maps in the history of the game, it makes perfect sense to have it in the occasional pool.
It is in the up and coming pool. We will reevaluate once January goes by.
While I'm personally in favor of Seton's (would like to play it in tmm), I advice you don't add it to the pool. Never add maps that have a high chance to single handedly make many players not search tmm (which appears to be the case here!). You need to cut out the most hated maps (even if they are loved by many) or the negative impact of people not playing outweighs the positive impact of people enjoying the map pool.
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@cheeseberry said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
Setons (all maps really) are "fine" in TMM if you only look at the >1.8k crowd.
Even if they don't have a BO, none of them will get navy locked at minute 6 or surprised by a strat at min 10.
And even if they do, or get out eco'd, they can just play unconventionally and still have good game.In the <1.5k range though, Setons becomes complete trash if you have an unequal number of setoners on each team.
In that range, a player with an air BO vs a player without one ends the game.
Not in a fun way, it will still take 30 min until the score screen shows, but it will be essentially over before the first order was given.If you must add setons into the pool, please only do so in the highest possible rating bracket only.
Even then I doubt it will be fun though.This wasn't TMM, but quite literally represents your post:
Air was equally rated, but the game was over before it even started.
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@morax Awesome!
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@blodir Most of the maps in most of the pools are arguably worse, far worse than setons.
And how is setons one of the most hated maps? Players hate dual gap and astro crater, but not really setons.It's all subjective preference at the end of the day. Except, a map like setons happens to be one of the most played maps in the history of the game, and for good reason!
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@nvpiurgbp0uiwrbf said in Matchmaker Team Sentons 4v4 TMM Inclusion:
And how is setons one of the most hated maps? Players hate dual gap and astro crater, but not really setons.
The fact that we have a thread with this many people arguing for/against shows how divisive of a map Setons is.
