My thoughts about balance
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@gabitii ah ok
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No time to read all posts, just pointing out i won as aeon every time destro vs destro. Only the niche gap style fights was were i would lose. And even then not by very much. Not to disregard ur points, but claiming he won every time wothout mentioning that it was a niche fight and not really destro v destro is a bit misleading
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@spikeynoob said in My thoughts about balance:
No time to read all posts, just pointing out i won as aeon every time destro vs destro. Only the niche gap style fights was were i would lose. And even then not by very much. Not to disregard ur points, but claiming he won every time wothout mentioning that it was a niche fight and not really destro v destro is a bit misleading
Poggers @gabitii why u lying bro?
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@gabitii its just a matter of different perspectives, you play dual gap so your opinion on balance is wildly different from dudes playing like 1800+ mapgen, and dualgap is a map known for its simplicity and general resident burger vibes, and rightfully so. Balance team does not account for dualgap so you need to understand why your opinion is met how it is met. Perhaps, if you tried to play in those 1800+ lobbies you would understand why some of your ideas are not working. Right now noone wants to explain stuff for you because like these complaints were mused over like 82737363 times and its a waste of time really
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@tomma said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii Perhaps, if you tried to play in those 1800+ lobbies you would understand why some of your ideas are not working. Right now noone wants to explain stuff for you because like these complaints were mused over like 82737363 times and its a waste of time really
1800+ mapgen lobbies are very rare thing to play and it is usually played not more than 3v3. And also, I feel that it is kind of unfair to consider only those lobbies as foundation for balance, cause the biggest part of the player are not 1800+ rated players.
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The biggest part of the community also doesn't have clue how to play this game.
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@tryth said in My thoughts about balance:
@spikeynoob said in My thoughts about balance:
No time to read all posts, just pointing out i won as aeon every time destro vs destro. Only the niche gap style fights was were i would lose. And even then not by very much. Not to disregard ur points, but claiming he won every time wothout mentioning that it was a niche fight and not really destro v destro is a bit misleading
Poggers @gabitii why u lying bro?
I have not lied, in most of real-game like situation cybran has won, you also told it is not real that 10 destros vs 10 destros is impossible, you will have more frigs, which I agree on. S
@spikeynoob said in My thoughts about balance:
Not to disregard ur points, but claiming he won every time wothout mentioning that it was a niche fight and not really destro v destro is a bit misleading
Sorry for that. Forgot to mention one important point: Most of the battles were won by cybran with the composition of frigs + destros, mostly early t2 or mid t2 stage.
Also a note: Spikey is incredibly good at microing destros, yet, he won no fight against sera destros with aeon.
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@xiaomao said in My thoughts about balance:
The biggest part of the community also doesn't have clue how to play this game.
So which means you only want to make balance for 1800+ mapgens lobbies, right?
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@gabitii No he’s saying you guys don’t know how to use the units correctly
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No single game thats played competitively is balanced towards the average player because it would result in either massively dumbing down the game or be completely imbalanced in way more maps and gamemodes than just a single map
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@tryth said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii No he’s saying you guys don’t know how to use the units correctly
Honestly, from the gameplay of 2k+ mapgen players. I would say they are better not because they know how to use mobile units better, but because they do know way better how to balance resources. And I do not only mean having your resource bar to be perfect, but in the gameplay. How much resources you need to spend for defence, for example, lower rated players usually spend way more in defense then needed. They have a better experience in attacking gathering a critical mass, so that it will not be a mass donation. And also importatn mention they do know better of how much BP they need right now and how much BP they will be needing in a short future. It is not only about using units properly, it is about rightfully spending resources (not meant of balancing the resource bar). It is my perspective of how I see top players.
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@thewheelie said in My thoughts about balance:
No single game thats played competitively is balanced towards the average player because it would result in either massively dumbing down the game or be completely imbalanced in way more maps and gamemodes than just a single map
What about my concrete suggestions on balance?
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@gabitii it was already explained why dualgap is out of scope of balance discussions, i wont repeat it. Doesnt matter if half playerbase resides there, if it means that every other map gets fucked to make it more enjoyable for you, its not happening. Besides, if any sort of high rated game not on dualgap style map is good enough to understand more about how balance works outside of gap! Just queue like 3v3 or smth
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@tomma said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii it was already explained why dualgap is out of scope of balance discussions, i wont repeat it. Doesnt matter if half playerbase resides there, if it means that every other map gets fucked to make it more enjoyable for you, its not happening. Besides, if any sort of high rated game not on dualgap style map is good enough to understand more about how balance works outside of gap! Just queue like 3v3 or smth
I do play mapgens and 3v3, specially lately, and I see not a big difference in navy gameplay on average water 20x20 mapgen and dual gap when it comes to navy. Except for in mapgen you might not have underwater mexes.
I played also setons for a while, yeah, that map is very special in terms of navy gameplay.
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@gabitii i dunno then, perhaps you play with bad people so that you overestimate power of cybran destro! I do not claim to be good, but if you want to test it we can do that!
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@tomma said in My thoughts about balance:
@gabitii i dunno then, perhaps you play with bad people so that you overestimate power of cybran destro! I do not claim to be good, but if you want to test it we can do that!
let's do it
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@gabitii so you think you could beat me in a 1v1 if we both started with a paragon?
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@gabitii let me update my client!!!
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Your aurora problems overlook the fact Aeon has blaze and flare to address weaknesses of aurora when the weaknesses are too large for the strength. Your aurora suggestions are just normalizing the factions for no pertinent reason since Aeon t1-early t2 stage is hardly a problem.
Your t2 air diagnosis is just wrong, janus is not the most OP t2 air unit. Aeon has the best t2 air roster due to the sheer flexibility of their gunship in combination with all the mass concentration advantages janus brings in fighting air fights via swift wind. Corsairs and Notha across a large distribution of games are each capable of ending games in way more flexible ways than janus which will always require at least 6-8 prior to doing relevant damage. Especially since a janus play will always revolve around powerlocking, notha or corsair can simply bleed you by killing mexes which janus are pretty terrible at killing. Likewise they can go for ACUs.
Aeon gun was insane, two players can play exactly the same and Aeon will win with an ACU that has half HP. The gun existed as a solution when neither flare nor blaze solved the problem of aurora and Aeon t2 stage was using Asylums to keep aurora alive until you could harb rush.
Sub gameplay is just totally not based in reality. Early frigs don't care about subs because they kill BP in the water. You kill the frig, I just killed 50% of your bp, now I will have even more frigs which spread across the map which give me intel, passive AA damage, and kill your expansions. So long as frigates are the designated AA/Radar/HP of navy, they will basically always dominate subs in importance. Particularly since 6 t1 engies can emergency build a t1 torp launcher and halt any damage to BP that a sub could possibly do, can't do that against a frigate.
Giving UEF destro strong torp defense is a terrible idea just because cooper exists. Your suggestion is once against an uncreative normalization of factions rather than playing into the fact UEF has the most unit-mix centered navy of the 4 factions in T2 stage.
Your battleship analysis is just wrong, UEF BS is only going to get good at large quantities. This is just a commonly held opinion. Aeon BS is considered the best BS across maps just because it's rare to get senton style maps where you see 8+ battleships fighting each other. Aeon is the best in small quantities, especially in combination with a push leveraging their strong destro.
Aircraft carriers are good, they are huge HP for mass and give good AA. Include some aircraft carriers with some torp defense and torpaggedon has a real pain dealing with anything. Aircraft carriers are also much better at dealing with gunships thanks to the HP and range compared to cruisers, which are a common counter to deal with navy without losing mass in torps to random aa.
The destro stuff is just whatever. I had a game once where Yudi would keep microing his sera destros and passively building up numbers while repairing via resto field against Farm who kept making salems. At some point it was like 8 salems against 3 phim destros and they still couldn't manage to kill 1 of the destros because he would dodge enough damage that the regen + vet would keep the destros going. At some point Yudi matched the destro count and ran Farm over. This was on flood tabula too, not even a wide open navy map.
Aeon destro is a one-unit-does-all button that is harder to dodge than salem. It is better.
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Aurora are bad in some cases but they are also very good in some cases. If you have a problem with this, you may address our good friend faction diversity
