@Mach @mauldin27
I think if a candidate laid out a comprehensive road map and a vision and the community commented on it, then the candidate may revisit and refine his/her/their/its proposal before the final vote. There will always be some who like change A and others who don't like change A, at the end of the day, you can't please all and have to make a decision to stick with change A or alter it, you may gain some, you may lose others. I do believe though that better solutions can be found that satisfy a maximum.
Let's take the Nuke changes f.ex. This is another example of nerfing first nuke without considering the impact on the second nuke. Increasing cost and load time should improve the balance on Seton's between SML and SMD I assume since you probably need at least 3 SMD to cover your bases, but this solution does not work well for Dual Gap and certainly not for most 10x10 maps where 2 SMDs cover all bases. The imbalance between SML and SMD is not rooted in cost or load time, it comes from the difference in range. An SML with a range of 700-725 instead of 20,000 would still allow Nukes to reach just about anywhere on a 10x10 map but would mean you would need a forward nuke on or accept reaching less bases on 20x20 or 20x10 maps. It would also increase the relevance of Nuke Subs/BS at the same time on larger navy maps like Setons.
So lets say a candidate proposes to repeal the nuke changes from the last patch and replace them with an adjustment to the range to prevent its utility scaling up with map size while SMDs go the opposite direction, some may say that is a better solution that doesn't just solve the nuke issue around 1 map (i.e. Setons). Others will cling to the current more expensive nukes because they hate getting nuked.
There are a multitude of issues that need addressing and of course many possible solutions. I do not think past and present balance teams have a good track record in dealing with them a high rating coming from perfectly memorized BOs and faster clicking speeds are not relevant.
@Tagada
Your math is technically correct but your methodology is wrong. You take Mexes with storage and Pgens connected to Mass Fabs as a given. This is simply the wrong way to look at it. I have never seen storages on an underwater Mex, it's not possible. Should we ignore these Mexes? Adjacency bonus is a feature that enhances a building's value like the SACU with its HP. mobility and other features enhances the RAS upgrade.
Also as you scale up your Mass Fab and Pgen farm, you need to keep adding Engineering power from either a factory or making Kennels/Hives. RAS SACUs have the equivalent of say 600 mass of T3 Engineering power to keep the math simple (nerfing the bp aspect to 400 wont do much in the sum of things as shown below). There is a difference in the upfront cost to supply that buildpower, i.e. Quantum gatewy vs T3 Factory. There are other factors that are relevant such as pathfinding as you scale the Mass Fab Pgen grid. You can't keep reinvesting your full income into one building at a time and therefore compounding at the same rate with engineers alone after a certain point. Also you would at one point have to put expensive shields up repeatedly to protect say every 2nd cluster of 4 building to protect them from arty.
So what it really comes down to is the methodology, you start from the point of people only build T3 Pgens and T3 Mass Fabs in grids of 4. That is like if I asked you 'where does milk come from' and you say 'from the bottle', and I ask 'well where does that bottle come from' and you then say 'oh yes, from the supermarket'. You have to look at buildings as stand alones when balancing the game overall not just in terms of efficiency at completion but also in terms of the path to reinvest and compound long term, transitioning, weighing risk and reward aspects, etc.
Lets list some relevant facts:
Mass Fabs
Advantages:
- Adjacency bonus with Pgen
- Adjacency bonus with Factory
- Adjacency bonus with Mass Storage
Disadvantages:
- Low HP
- Takes up a lot of space
- AOE of explosion is huge (14) and damage is huge too (5,500)
- Needs power to produce mass
- HP of adjacent buildings (listed above) is lost (Your 2 Pgen 2 Mass Fabs basically has 6,000 HP instead of 24,000 when connected)
- Can only keep up in efficiency with RAS upgrade on SACU when using its adjacency advantage.
- On a stand alone basis less efficient than RAS SACUs.
RAS SACU
Advantages:
- No power stall affecting Mass production
- Submersible
- Able to defend themselves (several T1 PD equivalent worth of resources)
- More HP
- Mobile
- Scale more consistenly
- Build power (almost 2 T3 Engies worth)
Disadvantages:
I honestly don't see any - 1,000 damage on death - the other SACU around it are laughing
So if you rate all advantages and disadvantages positive and negative values (subjective I know) you would see that RAS SACU are by far superior, especially in an arty war. I am sure the Gap crowd would agree with that from their own experience.
So lets try to rate 2 Mass Fabs + 2 Pgen vs 3 RAS SACU to determine balance in a wider scope. I will put some values in and yes they are my opinion based on almost a decade of playing the game.
*The efficiency of the RAS upgrade is 101.5% as efficiency as 2 T3 Mass Fabs and Pgens in producing mass and 98% as efficient at producing E, so lets say near equal with a small immaterial advantage to the RAS upgrade.
Mass Fab Pgen grid vs RAS SACU comparisson:
-Space (-2)
-AOE Explosion (-3)
-Power Stalling (-2)
-Indirect HP Loss when adjacent (-5)
-Superior return on investment (+5)
-Diseconomies of scale due to pathfinding (-2)
-Self defence (-2)
-Not submersible (-3)
-Immobility (-3)
-No build power (-1)
I get -18 but maybe someone else gets -12 or -25, I dont think the number itself matters.
Basically it all comes down to how many points you want to give to a 30% superior rate of return on the Mass Fab Pgen grid with adjacency but you would have to value that extremely highly just to overcome all the other disadvantages of a RAS SACU. Notice that the RAS upgrade is an income stream without adjacency bonus enhancing it.
I looked at it purely from a stand alone perspective on Github which would give you similar results to this methodology and I think intuitively anyone who frequently plays the late game eco war will tell you that it feels like RAS SACU are way better overall, why else would they build them.
I know this is a scathing review but it is not personal, I am only addressing the limitations of your methodology. I can't make you change your mind. You can stick by your methodology but I am telling you, you are missing the bigger picture of the strategic nature of the game as a whole.
Also you have listed those changes to SACU in that PR, I read it when it first appeared. I do not think those nerfs are good changes but what bothers me is that you say they are out for testing and WILL be in the next patch. You already decided they are going into the game...
@Wheelie
A live Q&A would definitively be more interactive than the silly back and forth posting comments on a forum that no one reads especially if you do it at the conception stage before embarking on a course that will make a mess of the game in many unintended ways. Will just be an organizational mess if too many people want to jump in and all talk over each other...
@Femboy
Thanks for tuning down your tone. I know some people will never get along but that is life. Some contributors over the years left because of the status quo at the time and more may come and eventually leave. If FAF goes on forever then that wont matter, there are toddlers out there who may come to our community one day.
@FtXCommando
I never said what you are quoting me saying.
“should I collaborate with these guys that don’t share my opinions? no”
You are misrepresenting my words and infilling your own made up facts. I will leave it at that. You write so much but say so little.
@Penguin_
Thank you for clarify this. I would still prefer though that this could be sorted peacefully. It would be a step forward if the Balance Team would just agree to an election in which they as a group or individuals would lay out their exact vision of how to improve the game while keeping it balanced and specify which changes are needed to achieve a better game overall. Addressing one small aspect at a time as they have in the past with no end in sight just doesn't cut it for me.
@Lord_Asmodeus
5 Fire Beetles doing 5x1100 damage taking out an entire airgrid when a T3 Pgen has at least 6000 HP.
Building Fire Beetles to take out upgrading mexes or clearing large armies.
Making false assumptions about me and my playstyle, etc...
Come on dude, get real...