Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team
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@mach said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
@maudlin27 said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
potential balance changes were highlighted in advance for discussion this time with the reasoning for then explained to some extent; planned changes that needed more time but were recognised as being required (eg GC nerf) were also noted.
even if the changes are announced ahead of time, does any feedback from anyone who isn't on balance team have any effect on them or are they just early patch notes that nothing anyone (not on balance team) says can change
Not saying communication is perfect but most things suggested (that are worth discussing) are actually discussed.
I wouldn't mind doing some live Q&A from time to time if enough people are interested in it.
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I'll make a hot take: the reason this thread exists is because posting standards on the balance subforum were raised to the point of requiring a dissertation on why something should be changed. This meant that people with bad balance ideas weren't posting and weren't being corrected, so their ideas and resentment towards the balance team grew until this thread happened.
How about we change posting rules again? Remove the "you need a 3 A4 page essay with data on why the idea is good" requirement, make it clear that the balance team is not obliged to read or respond to any of the threads, and lock threads that flame the balance team. -
The reason that rule exists is because, quite literally, nobody in the balance team was reading a single post in those forums and any regular user there was either shitposting the bad threads or creating the bad threads.
If you don't know how to use a unit or what the point of a unit is, then you got the help subforum or the training channel on the discord. The balance forum is supposed to be more involved.
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I like the idea of adding a balance discussion channel is the discord, that way anyone can join the conversation in an informal way. The gameplay and training channel serves that purpose rn but conversations are quickly lost in the traffic unrelated to balance.
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@spikeynoob said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
I like the idea of adding a balance discussion channel is the discord, that way anyone can join the conversation in an informal way. The gameplay and training channel serves that purpose rn but conversations are quickly lost in the traffic unrelated to balance.
Agreed. An additional balance discussion channel that a lot more players could participate in would be so easy to add and would probably improve the situation a lot (assuming the balance team interacts there a reasonable amount).
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@Mach @mauldin27
I think if a candidate laid out a comprehensive road map and a vision and the community commented on it, then the candidate may revisit and refine his/her/their/its proposal before the final vote. There will always be some who like change A and others who don't like change A, at the end of the day, you can't please all and have to make a decision to stick with change A or alter it, you may gain some, you may lose others. I do believe though that better solutions can be found that satisfy a maximum.
Let's take the Nuke changes f.ex. This is another example of nerfing first nuke without considering the impact on the second nuke. Increasing cost and load time should improve the balance on Seton's between SML and SMD I assume since you probably need at least 3 SMD to cover your bases, but this solution does not work well for Dual Gap and certainly not for most 10x10 maps where 2 SMDs cover all bases. The imbalance between SML and SMD is not rooted in cost or load time, it comes from the difference in range. An SML with a range of 700-725 instead of 20,000 would still allow Nukes to reach just about anywhere on a 10x10 map but would mean you would need a forward nuke on or accept reaching less bases on 20x20 or 20x10 maps. It would also increase the relevance of Nuke Subs/BS at the same time on larger navy maps like Setons.
So lets say a candidate proposes to repeal the nuke changes from the last patch and replace them with an adjustment to the range to prevent its utility scaling up with map size while SMDs go the opposite direction, some may say that is a better solution that doesn't just solve the nuke issue around 1 map (i.e. Setons). Others will cling to the current more expensive nukes because they hate getting nuked.
There are a multitude of issues that need addressing and of course many possible solutions. I do not think past and present balance teams have a good track record in dealing with them a high rating coming from perfectly memorized BOs and faster clicking speeds are not relevant.
@Tagada
Your math is technically correct but your methodology is wrong. You take Mexes with storage and Pgens connected to Mass Fabs as a given. This is simply the wrong way to look at it. I have never seen storages on an underwater Mex, it's not possible. Should we ignore these Mexes? Adjacency bonus is a feature that enhances a building's value like the SACU with its HP. mobility and other features enhances the RAS upgrade.
Also as you scale up your Mass Fab and Pgen farm, you need to keep adding Engineering power from either a factory or making Kennels/Hives. RAS SACUs have the equivalent of say 600 mass of T3 Engineering power to keep the math simple (nerfing the bp aspect to 400 wont do much in the sum of things as shown below). There is a difference in the upfront cost to supply that buildpower, i.e. Quantum gatewy vs T3 Factory. There are other factors that are relevant such as pathfinding as you scale the Mass Fab Pgen grid. You can't keep reinvesting your full income into one building at a time and therefore compounding at the same rate with engineers alone after a certain point. Also you would at one point have to put expensive shields up repeatedly to protect say every 2nd cluster of 4 building to protect them from arty.
So what it really comes down to is the methodology, you start from the point of people only build T3 Pgens and T3 Mass Fabs in grids of 4. That is like if I asked you 'where does milk come from' and you say 'from the bottle', and I ask 'well where does that bottle come from' and you then say 'oh yes, from the supermarket'. You have to look at buildings as stand alones when balancing the game overall not just in terms of efficiency at completion but also in terms of the path to reinvest and compound long term, transitioning, weighing risk and reward aspects, etc.
Lets list some relevant facts:
Mass Fabs
Advantages:- Adjacency bonus with Pgen
- Adjacency bonus with Factory
- Adjacency bonus with Mass Storage
Disadvantages: - Low HP
- Takes up a lot of space
- AOE of explosion is huge (14) and damage is huge too (5,500)
- Needs power to produce mass
- HP of adjacent buildings (listed above) is lost (Your 2 Pgen 2 Mass Fabs basically has 6,000 HP instead of 24,000 when connected)
- Can only keep up in efficiency with RAS upgrade on SACU when using its adjacency advantage.
- On a stand alone basis less efficient than RAS SACUs.
RAS SACU
Advantages:- No power stall affecting Mass production
- Submersible
- Able to defend themselves (several T1 PD equivalent worth of resources)
- More HP
- Mobile
- Scale more consistenly
- Build power (almost 2 T3 Engies worth)
Disadvantages:
I honestly don't see any - 1,000 damage on death - the other SACU around it are laughing
So if you rate all advantages and disadvantages positive and negative values (subjective I know) you would see that RAS SACU are by far superior, especially in an arty war. I am sure the Gap crowd would agree with that from their own experience.
So lets try to rate 2 Mass Fabs + 2 Pgen vs 3 RAS SACU to determine balance in a wider scope. I will put some values in and yes they are my opinion based on almost a decade of playing the game.
*The efficiency of the RAS upgrade is 101.5% as efficiency as 2 T3 Mass Fabs and Pgens in producing mass and 98% as efficient at producing E, so lets say near equal with a small immaterial advantage to the RAS upgrade.
Mass Fab Pgen grid vs RAS SACU comparisson:
-Space (-2)
-AOE Explosion (-3)
-Power Stalling (-2)
-Indirect HP Loss when adjacent (-5)
-Superior return on investment (+5)
-Diseconomies of scale due to pathfinding (-2)
-Self defence (-2)
-Not submersible (-3)
-Immobility (-3)
-No build power (-1)
I get -18 but maybe someone else gets -12 or -25, I dont think the number itself matters.
Basically it all comes down to how many points you want to give to a 30% superior rate of return on the Mass Fab Pgen grid with adjacency but you would have to value that extremely highly just to overcome all the other disadvantages of a RAS SACU. Notice that the RAS upgrade is an income stream without adjacency bonus enhancing it.
I looked at it purely from a stand alone perspective on Github which would give you similar results to this methodology and I think intuitively anyone who frequently plays the late game eco war will tell you that it feels like RAS SACU are way better overall, why else would they build them.
I know this is a scathing review but it is not personal, I am only addressing the limitations of your methodology. I can't make you change your mind. You can stick by your methodology but I am telling you, you are missing the bigger picture of the strategic nature of the game as a whole.
Also you have listed those changes to SACU in that PR, I read it when it first appeared. I do not think those nerfs are good changes but what bothers me is that you say they are out for testing and WILL be in the next patch. You already decided they are going into the game...@Wheelie
A live Q&A would definitively be more interactive than the silly back and forth posting comments on a forum that no one reads especially if you do it at the conception stage before embarking on a course that will make a mess of the game in many unintended ways. Will just be an organizational mess if too many people want to jump in and all talk over each other...
@Femboy
Thanks for tuning down your tone. I know some people will never get along but that is life. Some contributors over the years left because of the status quo at the time and more may come and eventually leave. If FAF goes on forever then that wont matter, there are toddlers out there who may come to our community one day.
@FtXCommando
I never said what you are quoting me saying.
“should I collaborate with these guys that don’t share my opinions? no”
You are misrepresenting my words and infilling your own made up facts. I will leave it at that. You write so much but say so little.
@Penguin_
Thank you for clarify this. I would still prefer though that this could be sorted peacefully. It would be a step forward if the Balance Team would just agree to an election in which they as a group or individuals would lay out their exact vision of how to improve the game while keeping it balanced and specify which changes are needed to achieve a better game overall. Addressing one small aspect at a time as they have in the past with no end in sight just doesn't cut it for me.
@Lord_Asmodeus
5 Fire Beetles doing 5x1100 damage taking out an entire airgrid when a T3 Pgen has at least 6000 HP.
Building Fire Beetles to take out upgrading mexes or clearing large armies.
Making false assumptions about me and my playstyle, etc...
Come on dude, get real... -
Penguin’s stuff is still wrong lol. The Board has absolute authority de jure and I never said otherwise, but the Board came out as intentionally offhand about all of this sort of stuff. If you had a problem with the balance team, you go to the balance team to deal with it. It isn’t going to go and change anything with the balance team because some dude or collection of dudes doesn’t like them. Anything of the sort would require an EGM being called or the bare minimum of a public Association discussion about it because that’s a huge overstep of the exact points given in the document Penguin linked.
Why he linked a document saying the Board is primarily concerned with strategic issues (financial and administrative), communication between teams, referring between teams, and forming new teams and thinks that supports him, I have no idea.
If you wanted anything to happen, you either attempt to convince the Association why a tyrannical Board is superior and make the rest of your elected Board think that as well during the next GM, or you got the exact problems I said.
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@evildrew said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
@FtXCommando
I never said what you are quoting me saying.
“should I collaborate with these guys that don’t share my opinions? no”
You are misrepresenting my words and infilling your own made up facts. I will leave it at that. You write so much but say so little.
lmao
oh, sorry, your wisdom isn't an opinion. It's a fact, right?
And yeah, that's your response right now to a balance team member asking you:
to make a thread about your proposals rather than nuking a system that has worked for 8 years because you feel you're above pushback?
Did you read your own OP? Does anything in the tone of the OP give off the idea that this is a post made in good faith? You've effectively declared war against any dude on the current balance team that would be voted in once again. This whole thread is built on you refusing to collaborate and an attack on the people in the seats as powergrabbing maniacs incapable of reason.
You couldn't even do the bare minimum of dividing the people on the team from the system they're in because thinking that far ahead was too hard.
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@Evildrew mexes will be able to be capped underwater. https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/4626
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@ftxcommando said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
Penguin’s stuff is still wrong lol. The Board has absolute authority de jure and I never said otherwise, but the Board came out as intentionally offhand about all of this sort of stuff. If you had a problem with the balance team, you go to the balance team to deal with it. It isn’t going to go and change anything with the balance team because some dude or collection of dudes doesn’t like them. Anything of the sort would require an EGM being called or the bare minimum of a public Association discussion about it because that’s a huge overstep of the exact points given in the document Penguin linked.
Why he linked a document saying the Board is primarily concerned with strategic issues (financial and administrative), communication between teams, referring between teams, and forming new teams and thinks that supports him, I have no idea.
If you wanted anything to happen, you either attempt to convince the Association why a tyrannical Board is superior and make the rest of your elected Board think that as well during the next GM, or you got the exact problems I said.
I was not wrong. The rationale provided for the proposal regarding FAF's team structure doesn't override the FAF Statutes of the Association. The FAF Statutes of the Association clearly say:
"The General Meeting is the supreme and sovereign authority of the association."
"All members may submit proposals for consideration at the General Meeting."
"The General Meeting decides on proposals by simple majority vote"
"The Board is responsible for managing day to day business. The Board consists of the board members elected at the General Meeting."pfp credit to gieb
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@spikeynoob Interesting. I was not aware of this but given what the game is now and has been for over a decade, my point still stands at least until this is changed.
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@penguin_ said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
@ftxcommando said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
Penguin’s stuff is still wrong lol. The Board has absolute authority de jure and I never said otherwise, but the Board came out as intentionally offhand about all of this sort of stuff. If you had a problem with the balance team, you go to the balance team to deal with it. It isn’t going to go and change anything with the balance team because some dude or collection of dudes doesn’t like them. Anything of the sort would require an EGM being called or the bare minimum of a public Association discussion about it because that’s a huge overstep of the exact points given in the document Penguin linked.
Why he linked a document saying the Board is primarily concerned with strategic issues (financial and administrative), communication between teams, referring between teams, and forming new teams and thinks that supports him, I have no idea.
If you wanted anything to happen, you either attempt to convince the Association why a tyrannical Board is superior and make the rest of your elected Board think that as well during the next GM, or you got the exact problems I said.
I was not wrong. The rationale provided for the proposal regarding FAF's team structure doesn't override the FAF Statutes of the Association. The FAF Statutes of the Association clearly say:
"The General Meeting is the supreme and sovereign authority of the association."
"All members may submit proposals for consideration at the General Meeting."
"The General Meeting decides on proposals by simple majority vote"
"The Board is responsible for managing day to day business. The Board consists of the board members elected at the General Meeting."Correct. And it will be denied by a 90% majority because that isn't what anybody wants the GM to be deciding. Submit your proposal for it and prove me wrong.
This isn't really any different than the EGM I was talking about btw so idk why you think I said this has no place in the process. I literally said that the Board would call their emergency general meeting to actually get support for it (read: a higher authority) to give it legitimacy.
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@ftxcommando said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
Correct. And it will be denied by a 90% majority because that isn't what anybody wants the GM to be deciding. Submit your proposal for it and prove me wrong.
This isn't really any different than the EGM I was talking about btw so idk why you think I said this has no place in the process. I literally said that the Board would call their emergency general meeting to actually get support for it (read: a higher authority) to give it legitimacy.
You said I was wrong. I wasn't. Also, I literally said:
@penguin_ said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:I am not suggesting a course of action here. My motivation for this post was to lessen the spread of misinformation and to encourage more people who care about FAF to join the FAF Association.
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You are wrong because it isn’t misinfo lol
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This post is deleted! -
@evildrew said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
@Wheelie Why I wrote this... Well I could have just watched you and your group continue to fail the community and just looked away and ignored all the comments that I read from people having meltdowns wishing the bleeding would stop, but the truth is; I had to do it because somebody had to do something and looking to my left and to my right there was no one who was going to say what needed to be said.
You say it maybe would be more useful to start a proper discussion. Well I was open to give it a shot and bring many of my improvements to the game on Github but I got these types of replies like the one SpikeyNoob referenced. What would anyone conclude who gives a flawless mathematical demonstration and receives an answer decrying the methodology which is logical and sound as "criminal" and blasting out conceptually and factually false statements about T3 Pgens and T3 Mass Fabs vs RAS SACUs. Who would compare a RAS SACU to Mass Fabs and Pgens and not just the RAS upgrade without the SACU cost when specifically adding that the SACU has all these other benefits. It is called double counting. I can't help people who get the equation wrong and then refuse to listen to someone whose analytical skills are superior. He may decry that he is the balance in a Faucian fit because he carries the title - fine - but that does not make any claims relating to the balance of the game true and this is where a major problem lies.
"First of all, calculating the income of T3 mexes without mass storages is just criminal. A similar is true for mass fabs without their adjacency to T3 pgen. If you calculate the efficiency of a 2 T3 mass fab + 2 T3 Pgen grid you will see that they are more efficient than RAS SACUs. On the other hand, RAS SACUs have BP, are less volatile, can move, don't take space, can fight etc. " https://github.com/FAForever/fa/issues/4365
This is not the only incidence of double counting/double buffing/double nerfing we have seen over the years where only 1 targeted change should have been done, even the last patch has some of the same problems. So is that really me being unwilling to have a proper discussion?
You see Wheelie you are in the wrong about this, portray yourself as the victim and accuse me of being the person you are seeing in the mirror. We all do this from time to time so I wont hold it against you.
The question I ask myself is: Should I waste my time trying to collaborate with people like that? No, I will not avail my time or material to a group of people who from my point of view lack the wisdom to recognize its value. Tools can do a lot of good if used correctly but can be very harmful in the wrong hands, especially in the hands of people who do not grasp the underlying concepts.I'm somehow accusing you of.. something? Meanwhile in your OP you are comparing me with a self centered dictator that uses conspiracy theories, blocks progress on purpose and puts his friends on important positions.
You have not shown us any evidence of what is wrong with balance and it's general direction. The only thing you've done is nitpick a few issues that people dares to disagree with your opinion. You call your own analysis a flawless mathematical demonstration and if someone thinks you're wrong they're the devil incarnate. If the balance team would behave like you are doing right now any possible balance discussion could be removed from the forum.
At the end of the day there are 2 main questions in this topic: 1, Should we make the balance team a democratically elected position, and 2 should the balance team be more open about its vision/decisions.
The first one is definitely a no for me as there is no good reason for it. Yes, lower rated players can be good at game design/balancing too, but if that's the case, what's stopping them right now? Spikey joined the balance team last year, not as a top player but as someone who wanted to help and had a positive attitude. Exotic retard used to be in the balance team while he was 1400 since he was a great coder(although i wasn't there at the time). Sure you have a higher chance to make it into the balance team if you are better at the game, but that's nothing to be surprised about since it means that statistically you have a way higher chance to actually know what you're talking about.
Both Rowey and Deribus, around 1k-1.5k rating, have roles that give them access to the balance team chat. Both sometimes make a suggestion or join in on a convo. Ask them how much we laugh in their faces for being just a mere 1k.
It isn't that hard to try and involve yourself. You just need a positive attitude and are willing to actually listen to others, while also staying critical of yourself. Being high rated is a pre but not a necessity.
As a small sidenote: Keep in mind you don't need to be in the balance team to have an impact on changes. Multiple changes in this patch were suggested by people not part of it.
If on the other hand we would democratically elect the balance team you would get tons of issues, a lot Ftx already mentioned. There's absolutely no way to stop it being a popularity contest. It reminds me of a story bh told me when he was facing zock in an election and he pmmed every random guy online on faf and he got 100+ votes from them because they new him from cool casts. So what happens now? T_R_U_putin gets elected by the russian gap community because he want to make the gameplay be more adjusted for gap. Tex gets elected by the 1v1 community because he wants to make all units fit 1v1 more and tryth gets elected by the teamgame community as a meme. Now what happens? 3 People with completely opposing views will never come to any coherent decision.
If on the other hand we would be electing 1 winner who would get to decide his own team then it's all the more dangerous. T_R_U_putin wins the race because the russian dual gap community is huge and he simply gets more votes. Or even better, yuri tells his audience to make him win for fun without even promising anything.
I know these aren't very realistic examples and pretty over exaggerated, but it certainly can happen on a smaller degree as the example with bh shows. In the end the cons far outweigh the pro's for me when it comes to electing the balance team.
Now for question 2: We probably should yes. I don't think anyone on the balance team is particularly against sharing information. It's just that nobody goes out of their way to actively share the information in the right place. I myself am guilty of that since i generally find discussing/explaining balance related issues on the forums boring and tedious even though when i'm streaming i can rant about a single balance question for 15 min.
This is why i suggested that i won't mind doing a Q&A every now and then at all since i would actually find it quite fun to talk about it / explain things. I didn't really think of anything else yet though, although the talks about things like making the balance team chat public is something i'm against. I don't think it will be efficient at all since it's nowhere near the only place were discussions are being held (other discord servers, in voice, on stream, in the client). I wouldn't mind something like releasing the meeting vods though since they tend to be more cohesive. Issue with that though is that they're kinda sporadic in nature.
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It's funny to see all these arguments against democracy.
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Shall we democratically elect the next mod team then?
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Evildrew u keep talking about how the only difference between u and epic balance team chads is fast clicking and memorizing bos or whatever. It's giga cringe. Just live up to ur skill level it's ok to be bad. There's no soul in faf that is so disturbed as to have BOs in teamgames, not even tagada. And half the high level scene has apm from retirement home cafeteria, myself included.
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@melanol said in Title: A Time For Change: FAF Community Balance Team:
It's funny to see all these arguments against democracy.
As it turns out, democracy is not intrinsically good and reducing arguments into simple labeling of viewpoints into classes that create some emotional response in people is a brutal insult on human intelligence.
