Is it OK that engi stations can eat experimentals?

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These are used as defenses, which should not be the case.

Maybe they should not have the reclaim ability or should not be able to eat experimentals. Maybe experimentals should be neither reclaimable nor capturable. Discuss.

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All experimentals have more weapon range than any Hive, so it's always your fault if they can get reclaimed.

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they should definitely have reclaim ability, they are engineering stations so they should be identical to engineers

experimentals themselves can probably be made unreclaimable like ACUs are (removing RECLAIMABLE category I guess), and idk if I ever saw anyone capture an experimental, when you capture you are doing a huge gamble that you will finish the capture, because if you stop capturing at any point (including because the only engineer/station doing the capturing got destroyed), it goes to 0% and all that capturing you did was for nothing, but if you do manage to capture it, you get an entire experimental to NO U uno card the enemy with (even if like I said, I never saw it happen ingame), meanwhile damage you do through reclaim is permanent and instantly applied to the unit, even if engineering station gets destroyed afterwards, making it the safer option

the problems I mostly see is someone reclaiming enemy exp as it is about to die, ex. chicken, which causes its death effect storm to not spawn at all, or ex. GC to not fall down and deal death aoe damage, not just raw damage from stations

also why should stations not be used as defenses? engineers themselves are often used to reclaim enemy engineers/units when in range (see early senton island fights), I often use acu to reclaim enemy buildings/units when it does more damage than gun (if you have engineering upgrades), imo build power in itself is a weapon that can and should be used, not sterilized because "engineers shouldn't be able to fight"

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@mach said in Is it OK that engi stations can eat experimentals?:

experimentals themselves can probably be made unreclaimable like ACUs are (removing RECLAIMABLE category I guess)

I like this idea - they are experimental and unique after all. They should not be reclaimable. Would also 'fix' the reclaim glitch that prevents the Ythotha from spawning the storm.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

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@femtozetta said in Is it OK that engi stations can eat experimentals?:

All experimentals have more weapon range than any Hive, so it's always your fault if they can get reclaimed.

  • Came from underwater

  • Lost all antiair and charging to an important target before the experimental dies to gunships

  • UEF engi station flyers can go anywhere

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Fixing this for t4s doesn’t really resolve the problem being engie stations. Them insta reclaiming any run-by of t3 units is just as dumb.

Losing a t4 to kennel drones is a massive skill issue tho

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5 GCs assault a base supported by hundreds of ASF

Cloud of kennel drones comes in, reclaims the GCs, leaves

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maybe if asf weren't op there would have been more than just only asf supporting those gc against air

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The only cases where reclaiming another team's units is an accepted game mechanic are engies vs engies and engies vs LABs.

Is it possible to make everything above T1 (or T2) non-reclaimable by a different player/team?

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a worrying amount of people hate fun

put the xbox units in the game pls u_u

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I've almost never seen kennels in a game (outside dual gap and the pass type maps), they die easily to any ground anti-air [edit - but not asfs - thanks for the clarification - although they do die to inties and swifties].

Out of curiousity I tried 50 upgraded kennels (100 drones) vs 1 Ythotha, which is roughly twice the Ythotha's mass cost. The Ythotha killed the drones almost instantly, taking 0 reclaim damage.

A fatboy kills 25 of the drones with just its basic AA (which are just for show rather than intended as functional AA); if it starts building a single T2 flak once the drones enter its firing range, the flak is produced well before the drones can get in range and it slaughters them.

A GC doesnt have AA but for just 160 mass you can build a hover AA unit that can stay near the GC ready to protect it from the kennel menace.

By this point I didnt bother testing Cybran to see how well the monkeylord AA performs against drones, since even if drones could damage it, the same point about escorting it with just 1 T2 flak would apply.

Granted this is before the balance patch changes, but due to how weak the drones are to aoe AA I dont see the buffs changing the result notably.

It's also a very fun feature - e.g. watching a cast and seeing a careless player let their experimental stray into range of a bank of hives and get reclaimed is very entertaining.

M27AI developer; Devlog and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v66-devlog

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Using Kennels to try to reclaim an experimental is not a very smart idea.
That's just going to get all of your BP destroyed, and it'll cost you more to rebuild them.


~ Stryker

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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@maudlin27 said in Is it OK that engi stations can eat experimentals?:

they die easily to any anti-air and to asfs

ASFs don't target flying drones.

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@melanol Strange, I thought I'd seen asfs wipe out an enemy shield once targeting drones that were underneath the shield, must've been some other air unit that was nearby

M27AI developer; Devlog and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v66-devlog

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@maudlin27
All Anti-Air fire, with the exceptionion of ASF fire, can target Kennel drones.
This includes Frigates, cruisers, Flak, static and mobile, etc. All other AA.

The reason for this is because ASF deal large amounts of damage and therefore shredded through shields.

Though, a funny and cheesy strategy -at the time,- it didn't make sense for an Air-to-Air unit to deal damage to shields; Not only did it not make sense for them to shoot shields, but, that was considered 'OP' and even broken.
Again, a very cheesy strategy to deplete shields.

Hence, why their ability to target drones was removed as of... a lot of patches ago.


Even then, Kennels still are wack. But it's nice they're getting a look at.
As for them being able to reclaim an experimental, I've never seen that done with Kennel drones, so if at all, Hives should have this ability removed.
Kennels too, to make it even and fair, but, it still wouldn't make a difference to them.


~ Stryker

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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This post is deleted!
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Using kennels as reclaim should be completely out of the question from the start since they dont move with the unit while reclaiming, so unless you have an hour of time you aint reclaiming a gc thats being microed.

Hives work way easier for this since they have way more range so you cant just walk a t4 or some randon t3 units in a hive farm range, although you should realise that walking units into range of a 20k mass shielded bp farm is probably not the best idea

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@thewheelie said in Is it OK that engi stations can eat experimentals?:

Using kennels as reclaim should be completely out of the question from the start since they dont move with the unit while reclaiming

Can't this be fixed if Kennels could reclaim with Patrol or Attack-Move? They'd follow the unit, then, no?

(Then again, one AA will make all the difference, regardless.)


~ Stryker

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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I think people missed that I was joking with kennels reclaiming GCs. Offensive reclaim with kennel drones is a complete non-issue in current balance. It's only hives that you'll occasionally see do it.

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@comradestryker

they can't reclaim while following so it'd be useless regardless