Nuke Sub Rework

@ftxcommando said in Nuke Sub Rework:

Make their nukes OP so it warrants making them even on maps where they don't actually provide any additional utility?

I don't see why it is nukes being only either overpowered or underpowered, if submarine nukes are currently too weak (which this thread is about I thought) and never used, then buff them until they aren't too weak and do get used, you don't have to make them op so that they have to get used as the only other possible option other than them being currently underpowered

you could buff pillars to 3x current damage per shot and say that is overpowered, or give other option that it gets nerfed to 0.3x current damage per shot and call them underpowered instead, without giving the option in between for some reason, we are currently in 0.3x situation with nuke submarines, just buff them to become balanced, not overpowered

if them being buffed to same damage as normal nukes is something you don't want (despite them costing the same as normal nuke) then what about reducing the costs of building their nukes (only submarine ones, not launcher) so it fits more with damage they do compared to SML that I suggested above that

it comes to what you want the unit to do, it was originally a unit you use to sneak nuke enemy base where they don't expect and from awkward angles and little time to react, which is why I suggested making them better at that rather than redesigning them into a different unit for a different purpose

@comradestryker said in Nuke Sub Rework:

@veteranashe

I like your idea! Upgradable subs.
Though, wouldn't this make Nuke Subs useless when you first build them?
Their main weapon is to fire cruise missiles... perhaps this should stay with them?
Unless you meant to keep those and instead build Tactical Missiles as a static TML does?

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@ftxcommando said in Nuke Sub Rework:

That's kind of interesting actually. If t2 torp launcher was repurposed to be an anti-torp unit it would also provide a stationary defense unit that the subs could also then TML if TMD doesn't exist.

This would also give room to alter the T1 Torp Launcher as it's only used when you're at risk of losing navy... as shown in a different post. Could make them a tad more useful.

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~ Stryker

Well the nuke sub would be really cheap as it only has the free tac missle, upgrade it with the tml (probably cheap upgrade) and it still launches the free ones and builds the higher damage ones you can select fire, might do extra range with these. Could even be a burst fire mode.

Build the billy nuke launcher for most maps with the cost in line with ftx suggested.

Could build the strategic nuke launcher and the cost a d build time would be in line with the regular unit. Might be a slight buff since you can get the nuke sub out of the factory and then do the nuke upgrade out if the factory so the factory can build something else.

Could go really nuts with this, have a upgrade for torps, or AA, giving options to those willing to spend the time to upgrade it after it's built.

Note I'm suggesting it can only have 1 upgrade and no upgrade tree, just pick what you want.

@mach said in Nuke Sub Rework:

@ftxcommando said in Nuke Sub Rework:

it comes to what you want the unit to do, it was originally a unit you use to sneak nuke enemy base where they don't expect and from awkward angles and little time to react, which is why I suggested making them better at that rather than redesigning them into a different unit for a different purpose

You do not spend 22k mass on some cheeky sneak attack. It gets randomly scouted and 800 mass in torp bombers eliminate it. There is a reason it only works on sentons. Beyond that, SMD coverage doesn’t allow for sneak attacks like that to do anything on most decent maps because the bases are spread out enough to require each player to make their own SMD already. Even on sentons you don’t do this, you make 9 of them to overwhelm SMDs by attacking where only a few can actually intercept.

Messing around with the statline is just going to lead to worse gameplay. The reality is that nothing can interact with nukes on the water. You make them cheaper or stronger and late game navy combat simply becomes too risky. You can never be sure how many subs the enemy has. You can never be sure how many are loaded. So why would you risk moving out from the SMD coverage near your beach and getting 60% of your navy nuked? Currently this isn’t a problem because a nuke sub needs to kill 2 battleships to be worth it. Except each nuke does 22k damage so it would take 3 nukes which means you need 6 battleships to die to warrant it.

On the otherhand tactical nukes actually induce proactive gameplay from both sides as there is both methods of defense and tradeoffs on sniping those defenses to take into account.

I don't mean "cheeky sneak attack" like some cheap drop in enemy mexes but an "unconventional" attack that may cost certain investment but with sufficient payoff from that investment

@ftxcommando said in Nuke Sub Rework:

You can never be sure how many subs the enemy has. You can never be sure how many are loaded.

imo this is what you are supposed to think of them, but in general sense rather than only for navy, the scary kind of weapon that always makes you fear of a nuke suddenly appearing out of nowhere where you least want it (unlike predictable SML you can clearly see in enemy base that gives a different kind of nuke threat), and what I suggest to make them better at

another possible way for this without increasing their damage or reducing the nuke costs is if all nuke submarines are given stealth like the cybran one so they can't just be "scouted randomly", or even given some new "stealth mode" toggle that activates this stealth but in turn prevents them from moving or even building the nuke at all while it is on (or like seraphim sonar, reduces speed significantly), and even adding cloaking to this mode so that only t3 scouts can see them when they have the toggle on but basically incapacitates them while it is active rather than being a mere energy cost, this would allow you to get around with them without them being sniped as easily and keep them as the nuke threat without risk of them randomly getting discovered by units passing nearby for different reasons, increased sonar range can help them avoid running into enemy ships by accident as well

idk I'm just looking at how to give a reason to build them while keeping them true to their purpose without imbalance or messing with stats or changing their role

@ftxcommando said in Nuke Sub Rework:

The reality is that nothing can interact with nukes on the water. You make them cheaper or stronger and late game navy combat simply becomes too risky.

this is why I wouldn't mind if your idea of tactical nuke (or nuke torpedo someone suggested) to use against navy was added as additional missile that nuke submarines can build, as long as the original "real" nuke remains as an option instead of being completely replaced/removed, if no one uses it for that purpose as you say then that means there is no reason to remove it either

the stats I speak of is mostly the very disproportionate cost of the submarine nuke compared to launcher nuke considering their difference in damage and range (70k vs 22k, infinite vs whatever-number-it-is), idc if they remain unable to viably nuke navy with these, but the cost of building them is the same as other "better" nuke for some reason despite clearly way lower damage and range? for example you can use launcher nukes to kill enemy experimentals, while using submarine nuke for that is a waste because it does less than half hp damage of any experimental other than fatboy, but... costs the same to build?

hope I at least gave some other interesting options to consider for changing nuke submarines, it's not like I'm saying this has to be exactly like this, numbers can be whatever it needs to be for balance, just the concept of unit itself is what matters to me

Years pass, people still propose nuke subs to be reworked into billy nuke launcher...

I did try that in Nomads and both the result and feedback I recieved weren't really good.

Let's be short:

1. Most naval units have damn TMD with huge range. Billy nuke as it is won't break through single cruiser/battleship/ect defence.
2. Naval units are spread too much so you wouldnt kill many units pre missile meaning its inefficient against t1-t2 things.
3. T3 units are too tanky. Billy nuke would be inefficient against Battleships even if it somehow hits them.
4. Stacking Billy nuke with cruiser/torrent missile valley leaves little to no chance to defend the land firebase.
5. Single Loyalist would kill your nuke sub and everything nearby because FAF can't copy EQ features since 2016.

Current nuke subs are fine as they are for FFA games. Much easier to hide, much harder to understand who launched it. In most cases it is used for cybran because stealth is too cool, but sometimes could be used by other factions. This IS what should be done for all factions.

IMO if nuke subs needed a billy, they should get it instead of their TML weapon (most of the time this TML is useless anyway), not instead of actual nuke.

@ftxcommando said in Nuke Sub Rework:

How about long range nuclear torpedoes?

That's kind of interesting actually. If t2 torp launcher was repurposed to be an anti-torp unit it would also provide a stationary defense unit that the subs could also then TML if TMD doesn't exist.

Reduce damage radius and this sounds interesting: kind of an OC underwater (command-fire and high damage), but requiring pre-build like TML (thus expensive and allowing rapid launch of around four, with long reload time).

If it did say 15k damage, that would be just over 3 vs a battleship (actually 3 for cybran), 2 vs a BC and 1 vs a destro (with extreme overkill).

Let it pass through shields but require something else (like T1 sub spam) to deal with torp defence. Make these torps cost, maybe 1k mass a piece? IDK.

Then cut the nuke sub cost and keep its TMLs to give it extra utility, but still specialised as a capital ship / shipyard sniper.

Why can't they be upgradable, like @veteranashe suggested?

They get the Billy by default and can later upgrade to a standard nuke if the player so chooses it... like the UEF ACU.
Standard Billy Sub: Build and fire standard Billies.
Nuke Upgrade: Build and fire nukes.

This seems like it would be the best of both worlds as they would allow both options to co-exist.

Obviously, some balance would have to be made to these units and their counters but it would rework Nuke subs to have more of a presence in games as they only really get used as mini-game enders 90% of the time.

~ Stryker

up the damage on the nuke to 26k, so two can potentially take down a battleship or maybe several, adjust cost accordingly

My suggestion: Nuke subs should be..

... a small-radius sniping unit designed to take out single high-value movable targets (battleships, experimental units/buildings, maybe SACUs).

Why:

• RIght now, nuke subs don't really participate in fights agains targets that can MOVE. In my oppinion, this is a shame. Lobbing missiles at static bases is boring and strictly late stage only tactic, and has all problems that Ftx explained
• We still try to keep their interactions with other units intuitive for players coming from Vanilla, ideally they use the FAF version once and immediately get how it changed

Step 1 (Damage application):

• MASSIVELY reduce their range to be a bit bigger than battleships, like 180, so that you actually have to move them to the front of your units when trying to snipe for example a battleship, allowing more counterplay opportunities. We want to see them used in actual T3 navy fights, not killing bases inland.
• MASSIVELY reduce their explosion radius so they do not kill too many units at once. Somewhere between strat bomb and billy radius
• Increase damage A LOT so they can at the very least seriously damage experimentals and kill battleships/spidermonkeys.
• Make missile speed fast enough so it has a chance to catch moving units, but slow enough so oppopnent can micro targeted unit away if missile is scouted early enough.

Step 2 (missile type and anti-missile):

• If a movable unit is targeted, the primary defense against nuke missiles should be MOVING away
• Make subnuke missiles neither real nukes nor tactical missiles, they should have their own missile category. If this is not possible, we could maybe work around by still using real nuke missile type, but change SMDs to react differently to normal nuke vs nuke sub.
• Missiles while flying should have a scoutable icon like nukes (but different icon)
• Give SMD an additional anti-nukesub-weapon that has smaller range than SMD missile and is free (takes no resources to build other thant the SMD building, but is balanced by rate of fire). Since the anti-missiles have no cost, we need to have lower range for them, otherwise, you could cover your entire navy while it is near your base against subnukes by building a single SMD near shore.
• If they are not a new missile type, we need to find a different solution, we don't want to shoot SMD missiles at nukesub missiles because SMD missiles should ONLY need to be balanced againsty actual nukes.
• If necessary we could even have a new building that is like "TMD but against nuke subs only" or add this capability to other units/buildings

Step 3 (air counterplay):

• Create counterplay opportunities for players that are aware of the existence of nukesubs before they fire by revealing the radar signature of a nukesub whenthey fire a nuke for like 10 seconds, even if it is outside radar. Maybe add a ping similar to nuke warning where they are located so their signature is not masked by other signatures when inside radar. This allows intelligent air player to build torps in preparation and target nukesub signatures when a nuke launches. Essentially make "nuke launch" an event that invites air players to fight together with navy player to attack/protect nuke sub after nuke launch, because more fighting is better.

Step 4 (balance)

• Adjust cost of unit until satisfactory usefullness is reached

buff so you don't nerf

Nuke subs could be mobile smd, if you follow the single upgrade suggestion, make a smd upgrade for some fun surprise smd plays.

Guess nobody is on board as almost no comments on it.......

Please, do the button to stop producing nuke unpressable. I think nobody cancelling every nuke loading in a subs, but they always pause it. So its a pretty huge mistake, when u cancel loading at like 4 nuke subs at 70%. U already spent all ur resources to it. But somewhy its still just make " all spented resouces for nothing" somewhy when U trying to just stop ur unit to dont move not to attract attention, for flying reconnaissance

One more possible suggestion is to change the free tact missle weapon to a free strategic missle so hills and mountains don't interfere with the missle, have same dmg and range and tmd still takes them out, maybe less fire rate, would still have the same cost problems as it has now.

Some suggestions in this thread seem like a needlessly complicated mechanic when you could just buff the damage on the nuke and maybe adjust the radius as needed. Then you could use it to try to kill navy with it. All these "make it like a nuke but not quite like a nuke" introduce a lot of fluff that is not really needed imo

The critical point is that a nuke is impossible to interact with (in the water) and therefore it’s shit gameplay if you can just nuke whatever you want in the water.

I think amphibious SMDs don’t lead to anything engaging or new in naval combat so I’d rather play around with billies and TMDs.

The interaction is to dodge and the mind games around it. I think it could be interesting, but I guess that is very subjective

You can't dodge a nuke from 100m away.

Pathfinding on the water is a pain...
And even a proper nuke doesn't do much damage to naval vessels.

I would like to see these get adjusted so they're more effective.
Difficult to say how, but I think FtX here, is on to something.

~ Stryker

Doesn't do much damage? It literally eradicates whole navy if it hits. Most of the time it doesn't hit cuz it's shot from far away.
That's one of the reasons submarine have such low damage compared to normal one, cuz it's so much friggin easier to hit big clumps of units.

How many bs would you say a nuke generally hits? I don’t think I’ve seen it hit more than 3. Would a billy at that radius be OP? It would for land armies but you could then mess with the cost of nuke subs themselves to make them more and more infeasible on maps with little water.