Resistance to change VS What's best for the game/community
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@penguin_ at one point there were a ton of threads of "x is op, pls nerf" on the balance forum, the current guidelines are result of that.
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I’ve had ACU pillar pushes stopped by beetles so idk why you haven’t seen them.
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@thewheelie said in Resistance to change VS What's best for the game/community:
I shouldnt need to respond to a lazy take of you with full research. Not my fault you put words in my mouth i never said and then criticize those imaginary words. Maybe if you wouldnt go in full aggro mode at every possible opportunity people would respond to you more seriously. You know, like what happened to strykers posts.
Also you, in a beetle balance thread ways back:
beetles are already good since the latest patch. It will just time for people to notice just like it took half a year for ppl to realise mongoose were busted
I can't believe you got me to go dig it up. I'm still waiting for people to realize beetles are busted. I'm not copying my diatribes on why beetles aren't good, go find them where I got that comment from.
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Personally, I'm a fan of taking suggestions that seem reasonable and implementing them, and then adjusting as needed. I feel there's too much nitpicking over trying to make changes perfect and then they just don't get implemented.
That said, how do I get on the balance team because I'd totally be down to throw some commits on the beta branch and try them out.
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You join balance team by being voted as a member by current balance team. You also don’t just throw random commits in because commits like that are supposed to be voted on by the whole team.
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@mazornoob said in Resistance to change VS What's best for the game/community:
I can't believe you got me to go dig it up. I'm still waiting for people to realize beetles are busted. I'm not copying my diatribes on why beetles aren't good, go find them where I got that comment from.
Yea? I don't see anything wrong with what i said. I'm clearly talking about your comments in this topic. You started by complaining about what i said in the past because in your eyes it didn't became true. But that's false from the get go since i've seen a significant increase in beetle usage in games i'm in. I point it out, not in the most "professional" way, but on the same wave length as you wrote your post, and then you go full fucking clown on me. Spewing personal attacks and putting words in my mouth i never said.
The perfect example of why your thought process is wrong is the recent trend of billy's. Stryker made a post about it being too bad and asked around what other people thought and most people, including a certain 2300 and other 1700+ players agreed with him. Billy hasn't been changed for a long time, way longer than you've been complaining about the new beetle, so you can reliably say that people always thought it was bad.
Now to prove them wrong i started spamming billy in quite a few games and because it worked so well enough people copied it so that you atleast see a billy every 5 games, which is substantially higher than seeing sera double nano/gun or cybran lazer/cloak.
The important part here is that it was easily showable in teamgames for billy's considering a billy's primary use is using it on large t3 armies, which is currently the meta for teamgames. The primary use for beetles however are t2 armies, which is extremely offmeta for teamgames atm. Still i've seen a fair quantity of acu snipes or other uses for beetles since teamgame equals acu fights on the edge of radar range equals no intel on beetles coming for your acu. And that's without it being the primary strength.
I still don't even understand how you think the new beetles are worse at all from a gameplay perspective compared to the old ones. When the old ones were literally uncounterable if you saw them too late and they relied on luck and cheese, while the new beetles rely on intel sniping, unit positioning, baiting armies in, etc. From a pure gameplay point of view the new beetles are, in my opinion, infinitely better than the old ones.
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I’ve seen beetles kill aggressive ACU pushes 2-3 times, including against Tagada and myself. I’ve also seen Farm use beetles to kill air grids via stealth drops. I’ve also seen like 5-6 beetles made to go walk into giant pillar blobs because one explosion kills like 4-5 pillars which is hugely efficient.
Beetles being seen all the time would not only make them less useful (people begin countering cheese that becomes meta) but they’d also be insanely oppressive to play against if they get buffed because they’re intentionally difficult units to find or gauge enemy usage of. They aren’t supposed to be used all the time.
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To actually have a post responding to the OP:
The reason why so few balance threads succeed is because the majority of better players (the ones with the highest chance of succeeding since they have the most knowledge on the topic) will have a talk with a balance team member instead of making the post. Ftx for example regularly talks with me or sometimes tagada to convey his ideas. Because of this the people that have the highest chance of "succeeding" a balance thread don't really tend to make them, which leads to an artificial lowering of succeeded threads.
The other reason is that multiple of these ideas were actually discussed and accepted (the t1 radar for example), but that there isn't enough manpower to change it (because aside from mostly tagada there isn't exactly a lot of github activity going on).
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@thewheelie said in Resistance to change VS What's best for the game/community:
I point it out, not in the most "professional" way, but on the same wave length as you wrote your post, and then you go full fucking clown on me.
Your response was hardly "the same wave length". I'm not inside your head, I'm not aware that "billy something something" means "beetles are actually being used". Focus more on being understood rather than being smug.
Still i've seen a fair quantity of acu snipes or other uses for beetles
I can't say I've seen the same. I made and posted a script for counting games where X unit was built, I wouldn't mind seeing how many times beetles were built over the last 10k games.
I still don't even understand how you think the new beetles are worse at all from a gameplay perspective compared to the old ones. When the old ones were literally uncounterable if you saw them too late and they relied on luck and cheese, while the new beetles rely on intel sniping, unit positioning, baiting armies in, etc. From a pure gameplay point of view the new beetles are, in my opinion, infinitely better than the old ones.
I don't. Old beetles were cancer, I just think they should've been taken in a different direction. You gave them one single role that they never had before: anti-T2 army, limited size at that since beetles have to be microed one by one. Plus occasional com snipe that would be better served by corsairs. I suppose since mercies, absolvers and sparkies exist, it's justified? Then again, even mercies have more uses since you can spam them against experimentals.
I'd rather see beetles evolve towards raiding/airdrop/anti-base role to make up for low capacity transports and bad anti-building T1 arty, hence the damage over time idea. Alas, what do I know.
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@mazornoob said in Resistance to change VS What's best for the game/community:
Your response was hardly "the same wave length". I'm not inside your head, I'm not aware that "billy something something" means "beetles are actually being used". Focus more on being understood rather than being smug.
That's the kind of faux-smug bullshit that caused balance stagnation this thread is complaining about. Your whole idea of beetle usage is based on personal preference and that one meme game of beetles killing mexes of a turtling team without radar. Any complaints about them or other stuff is met with "lmao you don't know better I'm the BALANCE GOD here". We set high standards for posting on the balance forums to discourage stupid and lazy takes, maybe these standards should apply to the balance team as well?
Yes it definitely justified this response.
I can't say I've seen the same. I made and posted a script for counting games where X unit was built, I wouldn't mind seeing how many times beetles were built over the last 10k games.
Yes i remember, but as i demonstrated with the billy this doesn't prove anything.
I don't. Old beetles were cancer, I just think they should've been taken in a different direction. You gave them one single role that they never had before: anti-T2 army, limited size at that since beetles have to be microed one by one. Plus occasional com snipe that would be better served by corsairs. I suppose since mercies, absolvers and sparkies exist, it's justified? Then again, even mercies have more uses since you can spam them against experimentals.
I'd rather see beetles evolve towards raiding/airdrop/anti-base role to make up for low capacity transports and bad anti-building T1 arty, hence the damage over time idea. Alas, what do I know.
This idea of yours is even more limited to their role then they currently are. Also beetles currently perform more roles than most other mainline t2 land units, so i don't really see why they need to do more. Also you don't micro them one by one, you just make a concave and then shift g them
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@thewheelie said in Resistance to change VS What's best for the game/community:
Yes it definitely justified this response.
I've seen multiple balance threads in the past get dismissed by you with witty one liners. If you don't want people getting fed up with this shit and going "full clown", you should give a minimally useful reply instead. "Cool" takes as a balance team member just make you look like a snob.
Also beetles currently perform more roles than most other mainline t2 land units, so i don't really see why they need to do more.
That's a hot take. I can probably name most mainline T2 land units that are useful more often than beetles. Main tanks for all factions, flak for all factions, hoplites/mongoose, stealth/mobile shields, arguably blazes since they're fast so they're not just anti-navy. What's left is sparkies, other hover tanks, MMLs and Wagner. I can agree with MMLs since they don't seem to be in fashion right now, maybe hover too. Definitely Wagner after its brutal HP nerf.
This idea of yours is even more limited to their role then they currently are.
It'd turn Beetles into land Janus in a sense, so I don't imagine it'd be limited to just base raiding. It's the smallest modification from the original that keeps their power, but removes the com sniping cancer.
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What I meant was that given the apparent inactivity by a majority of the balance team on github, I would like to help change that. I did not mean to say I'd just commit random changes. Obviously I'd follow the set process of things being voted on. If the main cause of balance changes not happening is because no one except Tagada is putting in the time to actually push some commits, I think that's something that should probably change.
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this has degraded to personal attacks and flaming at this point so i'm temporarily locking the thread for people to chill or take it into pms, will unlock either later on or tomorrow
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unlocked
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