Fire beetle balance suggestion
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@keyser said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
On an unrelated topic, i'm quite amazed you can draw any conclusion on the game from that screen shot. If you want to know it's a double gun acu vs a vanilla cybran acu. Without the mercy situation was pretty save (even after killing the yellow player and losing half of the army)
I just went from what I can see in the screenshot. Of course there's info outside that screenshot—which is the problem with arguing balance using specific scenarios. If a snipe occurs at 10 minutes we don't know what happened in the 9 before. I could just as easily argue mercies are underpowered if I showed you a screenshot from a game where they don't work.
So we don't use specific scenarios to generalize a unit's balance. What do we use, then?
@keyser said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
you would be amazed at the speed mercy can be produced on a T3 air hq. The timing to scout is quite short. Well i guess that's more an issue of air player spot map, but quite a lot of team game balance is around that now anyway
By T3 air ACUs should be under shields anyways. A t3 fac can also make t2 bombers pretty quick, doesn't mean they are OP.
Which brings us back to what I said above... we are using specific scenarios to argue a generalizable balance.
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will try to be simple.
land mine concept is garbage, its micro intense, its cancer, its annoying and there is no def against it. And there is not much more frustrating as when you acu die to something that you do not even notice that exist.
the main problem is that beetles do damage only when fire, and do zero damage when die.
the solution to this problem is to fix the main problem. And let them do damage when die as well.
Oh and of course fix this stupid pricing and 1100 dmg, like, good damn, who come with this numbers must have iq 9000 while none else can understand how grat it is.
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Beetles deal damage when they die since two beetle patches ago.
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@MazorNoob said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Beetles deal damage when they die since two beetle patches ago.
i don't see them such a long time that I not even notice : D
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Another problem with them I see currently:
They are intended to be used as a snipe unit, yet their damage is nerfed because of splash. 1100 damage for 190 mass is comparable to the damage per mass cost of medusa, yet medusa are not single fire. Remove the splash, give beetles 2500 damage, problem solved.
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Pretty sure i've seen people mix fire beetles into their army, and it actually be effective.
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@AchievedCheetah8 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Pretty sure i've seen people mix fire beetles into their army, and it actually be effective.
replay numbers?
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@Farmsletje said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
@Pearl12 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
They are intended to be used as a snipe unit,
no
This isn't helpful.
Evidence is.
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I don't need evidence to deny a claim that had no basis to begin with
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here's your basis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEOQn579744
nice chatting -
I like that evidence : )
I also believe that most people are far more inclined to try to use fire beetles as snipe units than anything else, and I imagine that will continue to be the case unless they are changed quite substantially. That seems to be the case regardless of their "intended" function.IMO, they don't feel right or look efficient/reliable enough to use for anything else on a regular basis, aside from extreme cheese or maybe certain niche pro plays (and this is coming from someone who uses mercies on T2 mexes because it can be mass efficient : P). So, I'd really like for fire beetles to be made to be more viable; either increase their mass/damage efficiency, or substantially change their functionality.
pfp credit to gieb
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I guess my question is, if a one-shot unit isn't for sniping, what is it for?
If you honestly expect people to use them regularly as if they were normal units, then... does attack-move work for them? Because otherwise that's waaaay too much APM. And to be worth the mass they MUST make use of their splash damage.
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@Emperor_Penguin said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
I like that evidence : )
well, in the interest of being reassured that you and everyone else in this thread is aware:
That video was posted back in 2014, back when using the bettle-ladden-transport as a mercy (by way of insta-self-destruct) applied the bettle damage, and thus made these utterly unavoidable, and uncounterable.
you can see this technique in use at a myriad of points in that video.
just making sure everyone's on the same page.
the beetle and transport mechanics have been changed primarily to patch out this exploit which is no longer doable in the game in it's present state.
and the intent of the changes to AOE and triggers and damage is to make the units adopt another role than simply "snipe unit".
so, that other role actually coming to fruition is what's being questioned in this thread.
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I was aware of that; I still like that evidence : )
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@tatsu said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
well, in the interest of being reassured that you and everyone else in this thread is aware:
Yes, it's old. I'm not saying it should be how it used to be, but I think it's foolish, also, to say that the beetle never was a good sniping unit, and cannot be again (the key here is "can" vs. "should." I am merely arguing "can").
I'll repeat my question:
@Pearl12 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
if a one-shot unit isn't for sniping, what is it for?
If you honestly expect people to use them regularly as if they were normal units, then... does attack-move work for them? Because otherwise that's waaaay too much APM. And to be worth the mass they MUST make use of their splash damage.
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What farm means is that the current balance team has no intention to make it some snipe unit, not that it never had that role in FAF's history.
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Ah okay, that's fine. It was just hard to perceive that from the word "no."
So, what does the balance team intend to do with it?
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I definitely find them useful as units for deterring a com push, although I worry that usefulness is probably mitigated by priority targeting mods.
If they were just a little faster, they'd be a good counter to T4. Not saying that we SHOULD do that, but... I wouldn't complain...
I think firebeetles have a limited role as eco damage drop units, although this isn't particularly sexy as T1 arty for other factions does it better.
Its not a terrible option though, as they don't leave reclaimable wreckage usually, so if you get a mex, the mex is gone and they don't even get the wreckage of your beetles to help rebuild with.
If Cybran transport capacity wasn't so low they might be seen as slightly less useless.
I think they're no longer in the "completely useless for any particular purpose" category, and are now in the "needs reasonable minor tweaks to really shine" category.
Dropping them to say 160 mass might be enough to change people's perceptions of them. I don't think they need anything like a major rework at this point.
In Leage of Legends, the devs have figured out a neat trick...
When they deploy a new character, the character is always moderately OP. This is to get people to take notice of them.
I think the firebeetle needs that. They need a moment where they're OP enough that people acknowledge that they exist and serve a purpose.
After that you can nerf them back into a reasonable position, and people remember how good they were and see how they can be useful and everyone will be happy.
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Hot take on this topic
What if fire beetle fired a single projectile and then after that it killed itself... So that means there wouldn't be any issues with them coming up close kissing the enemy unit feet before it blows up and it would partly solve the issue of the unit. So it gets into the range fires a single charged explosive projectile that does some amount of dmg in a AOE and after that projectile only husk (reclaim) of that unit stays behind.So it is a different approach to a problem that gives them some utility in a fight and better micro potential.
