Fire beetle balance suggestion

Azraaa

Pretty sure i've seen people mix fire beetles into their army, and it actually be effective.

tatsu

@AchievedCheetah8 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

Pretty sure i've seen people mix fire beetles into their army, and it actually be effective.

replay numbers?

Pearl12

@Farmsletje said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

@Pearl12 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

They are intended to be used as a snipe unit,

no

This isn't helpful.

Evidence is.

TheWeakie

I don't need evidence to deny a claim that had no basis to begin with

Pearl12

here's your basis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEOQn579744
nice chatting

Anachronism_

I like that evidence : )
I also believe that most people are far more inclined to try to use fire beetles as snipe units than anything else, and I imagine that will continue to be the case unless they are changed quite substantially. That seems to be the case regardless of their "intended" function.

IMO, they don't feel right or look efficient/reliable enough to use for anything else on a regular basis, aside from extreme cheese or maybe certain niche pro plays (and this is coming from someone who uses mercies on T2 mexes because it can be mass efficient : P). So, I'd really like for fire beetles to be made to be more viable; either increase their mass/damage efficiency, or substantially change their functionality.

Pearl12

I guess my question is, if a one-shot unit isn't for sniping, what is it for?

If you honestly expect people to use them regularly as if they were normal units, then... does attack-move work for them? Because otherwise that's waaaay too much APM. And to be worth the mass they MUST make use of their splash damage.

tatsu

@Emperor_Penguin said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

I like that evidence : )

well, in the interest of being reassured that you and everyone else in this thread is aware:

That video was posted back in 2014, back when using the bettle-ladden-transport as a mercy (by way of insta-self-destruct) applied the bettle damage, and thus made these utterly unavoidable, and uncounterable.

you can see this technique in use at a myriad of points in that video.

just making sure everyone's on the same page.

the beetle and transport mechanics have been changed primarily to patch out this exploit which is no longer doable in the game in it's present state.

and the intent of the changes to AOE and triggers and damage is to make the units adopt another role than simply "snipe unit".

so, that other role actually coming to fruition is what's being questioned in this thread.

Anachronism_

I was aware of that; I still like that evidence : )

Pearl12

@tatsu said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

well, in the interest of being reassured that you and everyone else in this thread is aware:

Yes, it's old. I'm not saying it should be how it used to be, but I think it's foolish, also, to say that the beetle never was a good sniping unit, and cannot be again (the key here is "can" vs. "should." I am merely arguing "can").

I'll repeat my question:

@Pearl12 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

if a one-shot unit isn't for sniping, what is it for?

If you honestly expect people to use them regularly as if they were normal units, then... does attack-move work for them? Because otherwise that's waaaay too much APM. And to be worth the mass they MUST make use of their splash damage.

FtXCommando

What farm means is that the current balance team has no intention to make it some snipe unit, not that it never had that role in FAF's history.

Pearl12

Ah okay, that's fine. It was just hard to perceive that from the word "no."

So, what does the balance team intend to do with it?

moses_the_red

I definitely find them useful as units for deterring a com push, although I worry that usefulness is probably mitigated by priority targeting mods.

If they were just a little faster, they'd be a good counter to T4. Not saying that we SHOULD do that, but... I wouldn't complain...

I think firebeetles have a limited role as eco damage drop units, although this isn't particularly sexy as T1 arty for other factions does it better.

Its not a terrible option though, as they don't leave reclaimable wreckage usually, so if you get a mex, the mex is gone and they don't even get the wreckage of your beetles to help rebuild with.

If Cybran transport capacity wasn't so low they might be seen as slightly less useless.

I think they're no longer in the "completely useless for any particular purpose" category, and are now in the "needs reasonable minor tweaks to really shine" category.

Dropping them to say 160 mass might be enough to change people's perceptions of them. I don't think they need anything like a major rework at this point.

In Leage of Legends, the devs have figured out a neat trick...

When they deploy a new character, the character is always moderately OP. This is to get people to take notice of them.

I think the firebeetle needs that. They need a moment where they're OP enough that people acknowledge that they exist and serve a purpose.

After that you can nerf them back into a reasonable position, and people remember how good they were and see how they can be useful and everyone will be happy.

The_Janitor

Hot take on this topic
What if fire beetle fired a single projectile and then after that it killed itself... So that means there wouldn't be any issues with them coming up close kissing the enemy unit feet before it blows up and it would partly solve the issue of the unit. So it gets into the range fires a single charged explosive projectile that does some amount of dmg in a AOE and after that projectile only husk (reclaim) of that unit stays behind.

So it is a different approach to a problem that gives them some utility in a fight and better micro potential.

Pearl12

@HintHunter said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:

Hot take on this topic
What if fire beetle fired a single projectile and then after that it killed itself... So that means there wouldn't be any issues with them coming up close kissing the enemy unit feet before it blows up and it would partly solve the issue of the unit. So it gets into the range fires a single charged explosive projectile that does some amount of dmg in a AOE and after that projectile only husk (reclaim) of that unit stays behind.

So it is a different approach to a problem that gives them some utility in a fight and better micro potential.

So... turn them into land-based mercies?

The_Janitor

@Pearl12
So... turn them into land-based mercies?

Well yes, it would be a different take on the unit then what it was before, worth a shot.
Tho i will say it will have to leave reclaim behind once it fires a single projectile.

Pearl12

I think it would be cool to see them "jump" at their targets. I'm not sure how they would leave a husk behind when they do this. Nor am I going to animate it. But it would be cool.

The_Janitor

That "jump" idea sounds even better now.

Psions

Beetles were fine as they were then the balance team gave up to a few loud voices of irritated blind people that don't understand what a minimap is and what a radar is.

Ever since then its been an eternal question of how to not make the beetle a useless pile of garbage.

Previously a beetle snipe set you back 4k mass in the early-mid game (ALOT) for a potential com kill that relies on enemy blindness to work (A single Flacks fucks them).

That's right boys, you can counter a well prepared beetlesnipe and be retard blind by putting a 200mass unit on assist to your acu.

OOF

People also get frustrated when they die to mercy or nuke rushes. Its just neither of those are restricted to "Cybran" so they get let off.

Also people stating they can be used as "eco damage" drops. Build a Notha, its 'cheaper' and more reliable and can fire multiple times.

MazorNoob

I've never seen a more wrong opinion about beetles.

A beetle snipe didn't set you back 4k mass when you could load up 4 onto a T1 transport and kill a full HP ACU 5 minutes into the game. You're not getting flak this early unless you're paranoid and immediately rushing T2 or keeping your ACU in your base the whole game. Flak doesn't work 100% of the time either. Mercies are a bit different in that people don't counter them properly, the best counter to mercies is scouting and suiciding in a handful of inties to kill the whole lot in 1 pass before they leave the base. Unlike a tanky transport, there's no defending that.

Unlike nothas, beetle drops can be stealthed and you can drop engies with them to steal the mass. I used to steal T2 and T3 mexes that way, of course it's much harder now with halved reclaim speed. It's also more cost-efficient than nothas assuming old beetle damage and much harder to stop once they land. Just like arty drops really.