Fire beetle balance suggestion
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@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Balancing them as a pure snipe unit again won't work. They were like that before, and they were OP, then UP, then OP, then UP... It just can't be done. FFS, give up! Try something new!
The issue with the fire beetle was the ability to drop on the head of the opponent player.
I tried few month ago to replicate it, you can't drop on his head anymore. You can try to lower the transport low enough that when you ctrl k the transport it snipe the ACU, but this take a lot of time and it succeed like 1 out 10 even if there is no aa.
I've never seen people being abused by beetle walking into the com, and then complaining. I was able to pull that out on OP to punish aggressive ACU push to your expansion. Goal of beetle as i imagine it isn't sniping, this would depend on the number of beetle ofc, but usually at the timing it is used you won't have enough to kill a com, only to weaken it enough to stop a push.
Then you can see it used later to sneak in the back of exp for example. -
@IceDreamer I gave you a solution that stops beetles from being an OP ACU snipe unit. Its direct counters are direct fire units and buildings, it has the mobility via high unit speed and transports. You can't claim that your landmines are the only way forward.
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@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Balancing them as a pure snipe unit again won't work.
I disagree. I think something like this would work fine:
Damage: 1100 -> 1500
Mass: 190 -> 200
Damage Radius: 6 -> 4
Range: 5.8 -> 7That being said, as an alternative, I do like the landmine idea suggested in the OP, and I think that it could be done well; it would just be a much more major reworking of the fire beetle.
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@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
This is why landmines is the only possible route forwards. TMLs have direct counterplay. Strats are T3 and have direct, very effective counterplay. Mercies have direct counterplay. Telemazer has direct counterplay. Yet even with the counterplay in effect, the mobility of the assualt allows it to still be useful. The same is untrue for beetles. The same approach will never work.
Try. Something. New.
Land mines is a fucking cancer too. There's no counter play to that either as intel works differently compare to other RTS which have this kind of mechanic.
What units have omni to spot a mine? ACU, SCU, T3 scout, Omni, GC, Novax. ACU is only thing that exists at t2 stage and that's not a unit you would ever want to have near Fire Beetle, other units appear in t3 stage. This means there's no counter play to land mines either.
This yet brings us back to Fire Beetle stats so cloaked mine Beetle would be still more efficient than building more tanks/arty but wouldn't destroy your entire army if you happened to walk into it since you can't spot it at t2 phase.
And as far as I remember there were complains about being micro intense to place land mine, manually detonate it and make sure you don't accidently move it around.
Also, what prevents you from transporting bombs and using them classic way?
This land mine concept is as ugly, as any concept which involves Fire Beetle to kill things on its own.
Saboteur concept
To think of it, I remember old nomad team tried to improve EMP code for FAF. Some improvements work for years in Nomads (not integrated into FAF), but they also attempted to make stun affect power/mass production and buildings build power.May be it could be possible to allow Fire Beetle not only stun units, but also stop enemy unit/resource production for some time if you happened to sneak one at enemy base.
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@MazorNoob Of course I can, it's what I believe. You presented what you believe to be an option. I disagree; I don't think that it can be done. I don't think there's any state where that unit design won't be either stronger than any alternative, and therefore overused and, in time, regarded as "cheap" and "OP", or weaker than more commonly available alternatives, and therefore never used. I don't believe there is any such state. I just cannot see it. All the testing I did years back, trying literally hundreds of stat combinations, I couldn't get it there. I couldn't even get it satisfactory on paper!
My prior response stands. If you wish to try it, I won't stop you. Just be aware that it's my belief that you won't succeed.
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@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Balancing them as a pure snipe unit again won't work. They were like that before, and they were OP, then UP, then OP, then UP... It just can't be done. FFS, give up! Try something new!
If they are OP, then UP, it seems there must be a middle ground, no? "We've never done it before, therefore, it can't be done" is not only defeatist but a logical fallacy. Rather than saying, "give up, it can't be done," I think your argument would be more effective if you acknowledged both sides and then stated why landmines are a better option. Saying they are the only option is not very appealing.
@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Pearl, your argument that the guy had already lost is disingenuous and silly. A pair of well-placed OCs are easily capable of rescuing that situation, and for all we know Air was on its way, so Bombers wouldn't have achieved what Mercies did.
I'm not saying pink will definitely die, I'm saying pink has lost, at the moment, because they have less mass on the field. If you and I play a game and I have your ACU surrounded by 10 pillars, no, you may not die... but in that moment you have lost. The game is about accumulating, spending, and positioning mass. From that screenshot, it appears to me that pink has accumulated and spent less mass than their opponent. It's not that it can't be turned around. But it's also not a great moment to use to argue that mercies are OP, since pink is clearly behind even without the mercies on the field. Even if it was, it's a pretty small sample size.
Also, I count 13, possibly 14 beetles. It would require some skilled OC'ing indeed to counter that many plus already being in range of the enemy ACU.
@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Fact of the matter is that ALL of this game's pure snipe weapons have been mired in controversy for years because they don't feel good to play against. At that point balanced or not isn't the question, it's whether people quit the game entirely for not being fun any more!!! Mercies, TMLs, Beetles, Strats, Telemazer... People don't like them very much.
It's not controversy, it's discomfort. Losing never feels good, and one way people cope with difficult feelings is by complaining. That doesn't mean the way you lost needs to be changed. It needs to be changed if it is consistently unfair or unbalanced—regardless of how it feels. And there is an easy, fair, balanced, accessible solution to mercies: scout. The same direct, effective counterplay that works for strats.
I think a lot of people like mercies, tmls, beetles, strats, and tele quite a bit. Because one of the most fun aspects of this game is pulling back a seemingly lost game. And they all have easy counters:
(wait for it)
scout.@IceDreamer said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
This is why landmines is the only possible route forwards. TMLs have direct counterplay. Strats are T3 and have direct, very effective counterplay. Mercies have direct counterplay. Telemazer has direct counterplay. Yet even with the counterplay in effect, the mobility of the assualt allows it to still be useful. The same is untrue for beetles. The same approach will never work.
Try. Something. New.
Landmines are not the only possible route moving forwards. There are many routes forward, some better than others. Maybe landmines are the route we will choose, but I don't think you'll get many people in your boat if you aren't willing to consider other options. On an emotional level (since you are talking about how snipes make people feel), saying "I'm right and you're wrong" rarely works, but saying, "I understand where you're coming from, and there are parts of it I agree with. Here's why what I'm thinking would be slightly better" tends to garner a lot more responsiveness.
Anyway, you still haven't answered some of the most basic questions about the mechanics of landmines. I'd love to learn more about them. For example:
- How are they seen before and after deployment? Radar only?
- How are they countered? Are there special disarming units for every faction?
- Do beetles no longer do any damage unless they are "buried" first? Does that mean they can longer do damage to buildings, or anything that's not moving?
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@Pearl12 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
I'm not saying pink will definitely die, I'm saying pink has lost, at the moment, because they have less mass on the field. If you and I play a game and I have your ACU surrounded by 10 pillars, no, you may not die... but in that moment you have lost. The game is about accumulating, spending, and positioning mass. From that screenshot, it appears to me that pink has accumulated and spent less mass than their opponent. It's not that it can't be turned around. But it's also not a great moment to use to argue that mercies are OP, since pink is clearly behind even without the mercies on the field. Even if it was, it's a pretty small sample size.
Also, I count 13, possibly 14 beetles. It would require some skilled OC'ing indeed to counter that many plus already being in range of the enemy ACU.What you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense. We are only talking about the fact that mercy can easily snipe an offensive acu because maa (and flak) are pretty bad to deal with it (i'm not even talking about cybran T1 maa which is totally garbage for that purpose).
On an unrelated topic, i'm quite amazed you can draw any conclusion on the game from that screen shot. If you want to know it's a double gun acu vs a vanilla cybran acu. Without the mercy situation was pretty save (even after killing the yellow player and losing half of the army)
I think a lot of people like mercies, tmls, beetles, strats, and tele quite a bit. Because one of the most fun aspects of this game is pulling back a seemingly lost game. And they all have easy counters:
(wait for it)
scout.you would be amazed at the speed mercy can be produced on a T3 air hq. The timing to scout is quite short. Well i guess that's more an issue of air player spot map, but quite a lot of team game balance is around that now anyway
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For what it’s worth I pulled off a beetle snipe recently. But I concur that they do need the DPS buff (and yes, I believe in the stupidly simple solution here)
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@keyser said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
On an unrelated topic, i'm quite amazed you can draw any conclusion on the game from that screen shot. If you want to know it's a double gun acu vs a vanilla cybran acu. Without the mercy situation was pretty save (even after killing the yellow player and losing half of the army)
I just went from what I can see in the screenshot. Of course there's info outside that screenshot—which is the problem with arguing balance using specific scenarios. If a snipe occurs at 10 minutes we don't know what happened in the 9 before. I could just as easily argue mercies are underpowered if I showed you a screenshot from a game where they don't work.
So we don't use specific scenarios to generalize a unit's balance. What do we use, then?
@keyser said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
you would be amazed at the speed mercy can be produced on a T3 air hq. The timing to scout is quite short. Well i guess that's more an issue of air player spot map, but quite a lot of team game balance is around that now anyway
By T3 air ACUs should be under shields anyways. A t3 fac can also make t2 bombers pretty quick, doesn't mean they are OP.
Which brings us back to what I said above... we are using specific scenarios to argue a generalizable balance.
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will try to be simple.
land mine concept is garbage, its micro intense, its cancer, its annoying and there is no def against it. And there is not much more frustrating as when you acu die to something that you do not even notice that exist.
the main problem is that beetles do damage only when fire, and do zero damage when die.
the solution to this problem is to fix the main problem. And let them do damage when die as well.
Oh and of course fix this stupid pricing and 1100 dmg, like, good damn, who come with this numbers must have iq 9000 while none else can understand how grat it is.
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Beetles deal damage when they die since two beetle patches ago.
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@MazorNoob said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Beetles deal damage when they die since two beetle patches ago.
i don't see them such a long time that I not even notice : D
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Another problem with them I see currently:
They are intended to be used as a snipe unit, yet their damage is nerfed because of splash. 1100 damage for 190 mass is comparable to the damage per mass cost of medusa, yet medusa are not single fire. Remove the splash, give beetles 2500 damage, problem solved.
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Pretty sure i've seen people mix fire beetles into their army, and it actually be effective.
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@AchievedCheetah8 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
Pretty sure i've seen people mix fire beetles into their army, and it actually be effective.
replay numbers?
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@Farmsletje said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
@Pearl12 said in Fire beetle balance suggestion:
They are intended to be used as a snipe unit,
no
This isn't helpful.
Evidence is.
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I don't need evidence to deny a claim that had no basis to begin with
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here's your basis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEOQn579744
nice chatting -
I like that evidence : )
I also believe that most people are far more inclined to try to use fire beetles as snipe units than anything else, and I imagine that will continue to be the case unless they are changed quite substantially. That seems to be the case regardless of their "intended" function.IMO, they don't feel right or look efficient/reliable enough to use for anything else on a regular basis, aside from extreme cheese or maybe certain niche pro plays (and this is coming from someone who uses mercies on T2 mexes because it can be mass efficient : P). So, I'd really like for fire beetles to be made to be more viable; either increase their mass/damage efficiency, or substantially change their functionality.
pfp credit to gieb
