Annual Tournament Proposal in Reply to Swkoll

@Swkoll wrote in "New Player Council Thread" something something:

I brought this up in the discord, but I've been asked to post this here.

Ftx's plans are well documented and I'm interested in the specific changes to the tournament scene that @Morax and @Emperor_Penguin would bring. Namely,

Would you continue to support the Ladder League Invitationals and LotS (and what specific changes would you make to them, if any)?

Exactly what new events would you personally run? You've said you would run new events for lower rated players and Morax has talked about a rating restricted LotS parallel event. I'm interested in specifically what sort of events you are planning on running and how frequently would you run them.

Annual Tournament Series Proposal - Morax Player Council

Initial Player Council Application (for Reference):

Thoughts on Current System of Seasonal Events:

The invitational series (hosted by Swkoll, thus far) and Ladder League Invitationals have my utmost attention and respect. Anything and everything that promotes regular play through ladder, TMM, or team games will likely get support from me. I would like to extend the seasonal events to TMM / custom, casual games as well. But to keep on topic: I will of course support the ladder league & invitational series to answer Swkoll, and whomever were wondering about my stance on such events.

Thoughts on Current Lack of Tournament Directors:

From my perspective, I think that tournament directors have become an issue due to the demand of tournament complexity, and therefore length. Last year I helped with the Legend of the Stars Group stage, and it was draining to say the least managing the map / faction veto. The length got to be a bit much in my opinion, but that is just me.

A few people have noted that participant punctuality is a major concern as well, so this falls upon the players. Perhaps we need to implement some more strict “be on time” measures so that people do not mess around:

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In order to address this issue, the following ideas and motions will be necessary.

Idea pool to bring in new TDs and strengthen retention:

  1. Pay TDs 20-30 bucks an event so they can buy themselves lunch/dinner + beer or juicebox (under 21 in US, Under 18 rest of the world)

  2. Reduce complexity and duration for non-major events to reduce anxiety, within reason

  3. Give a “committed TD” who hosts 1 question to add to broadcast polls to the community.

  4. Keep in mind broadcast polls will be rarely used as it is not desired to extend a pop-up request to players often.

  5. Create a group of TDs that can offer to help with short, quick events and a group more committed to lengthier events that can receive incentives
    Gather more feedback with a general survey to determine appropriate actions, and find a happy midway agreement between players and event coordinators

Legend of the Stars (December / Winter Event)

First and foremost, please note that since it is about halfway through the 2021 year, I will not be proposing that we alter anything currently planned for placement (see reference here: as it will adversely affect the up and coming Legend of the Stars event. The actual format of the tournament will stay the same unless the players and donors agree to a new system. For reference, here is the format with a Group Stage 4 → 2 , followed by an elimination bracket:

The “mini Legend of Stars” is a bit of a wild card to me. I do not have details, nor are they fleshed out by anyone as of yet, so it is difficult to comment on that. My preference would be to have one “substitutional.”

Since my application post was vague on how the U1900 and O1900 (REMEMBER: these rating cutoffs are hypothetical and not final) will function, I want to make it clear: the two will be carbon copy formats so that the minor (U1900) and major (O1900) tiers are smooth transitions. The goal is to give the minor tier winners an experience like the higher, and hopefully progress in improving skill to become part of the O1900 contenders in the following year. It will in no way allow those who elect to participate in the minor tier to somehow play in the majors. The events will run simultaneously, which may create a conflict of interest for what is broadcast on FAF Live (or other mediums), but it would likely defer to majors. Should there be a break in between, perhaps a showing of a minor league game would be suitable.

Map pools, faction vetoes, and other features of the tourney will remain intact.

Trainer’s Incentive & Average Joe's Tournaments (seasonal) - kudos to Inspektor-Kot & White_Owl

Forged Alliance Forever used to glorify the training and up and coming players back in its earlier days. To help promote this, I want to give a lot of credit to White Owl and Inspektor Kot for bringing us the “Road To Glory” event ( see here: ).

It reminds me of back in the day when Greenio used to host “Average Joe’s events” and Blodir, Speed2, Exotic did a live stream with commentary:

So what is the incentive for trainers?

Well, in the case of a trainer that may not be interested in playing the game themselves much anymore, but are happy to help teach, I want to give a prize incentive to them as well:

For the spring, summer, and fall, a “Master and Apprentice Series” will be hosted where trainers can bring a pupil of their choice (either from a “Average Joe” or off the streets of Aeolus/Discord FAF) and commit to training up to 3 individuals

At the end of the seasons, an event will be held with incentive to give a cash prize to the apprentice and the master. The master’s apprentice must place in the top tier of all the participants for them to win a prize. This of course will be scalable based on headcount, and should there not be enough longevity, or the apprentice drops out, one can elect to pick up a new one.

Why focus so much on this style event?

Well, I believe player retention is more difficult because of how complex the game is rather than anything else. To keep the possibility of finding new, top tier talent as high as possible, we should start to produce a track record of how effective training works in the Forged Alliance community. I believe wholeheartedly that if we show new players who are having a tough time there is a proven system in place for bringing those who need help to succeed in place, it will make retention far better than before.

Proposed Format:

Double-Elimination, BO1 for seasonal
Swiss-Style EOTY Event

TMM-based events

The team matchmaker is still in its infancy, but already it has shown to bring back some players and finally celebrate a ranked “team game” environment where maps are pooled rather than selected.

Already, we have 2 events up and coming thanks to Aurico and KeyBlue (returning player - hooray!):

Aurico’s weekly 2v2:

KeyBlue’s Teammate & Me:

I pledge 100% to involve TMM more as it develops and create an EOTY event dedicated to celebrating this rating. It will likely precede Legend of the Stars or take place afterwards.

Proposed Format:

Double-Elimination, BO1 for 2 events prior to EOTY
Swiss-Style EOTY Event for top-placing, 4 teams (maybe more)

Global-Casual Events

History has at hand a number of global-rating casual based events, which I want to get involved with as most of the community is NOT competitive in nature. I want to always offer and promote this, hope it grows in interest and it becomes easier for casual players to participate. This demand will directly drive how many events are hosted a year.

Special Events

This could be anything from a Supreme Commander: Total Annihilation to “Ahwassa Micro” event. It would have to be up to others to host these, and I would simply support them as best I can to remain focused on 1v1, tmm, global, trainer events.

And Last but Not Least, Clan Events

It has been over 4 years since a wide-scale clan event was hosted:

The event was never finished due to time conflicts, and what I believe was a length issue. We all want to have an amazing, lengthy event to test clans, but over the years it has proven to be quite cumbersome as almost no one can commit to that many days, weekends in a row.

My suggestion is to do some events throughout the year that are less intense, perhaps a quick “Blitz-like” series of BO1 3v3, maybe 4v4 to build points and define a group of the top 4 (we don’t have many clans that could commit) to play in a more serious event like the one Saske did:

Since clan events have such an issue in the past, I want to be cautiously optimistic in time commitment.

Tournament Forecast Calendar

This is a big deal, and I want everyone to know that NO, I will not be able to TD everything I wrote above; however, I will commit 100% to the LoTS, EOTY events no matter what.

Because 2021 is half over, I can not alter the qualification point events for the LoTS since that would cause too much a burden in the process.

I am a bit worried about using round-robin for the qualifier events as my 2v2 event that used it had nightmares… A simple BO1/3 or swiss-style will likely be used instead.

13th - Spring Qualifier (Swkoll)
20th - Group Stage (Swkoll)
27th & 28th - Day 1 & 2 of Spring Invitational (Swkoll)

10th - April League Series (Player Council FAF)

6th & -13/6 - June League Series (Player Council FAF)

10th- Summer Qualifier (Swkoll)
17th- Group Stage (Swkoll)
24th & 25th - Day 1 & 2 of Summer Invitational (Swkoll)

14th - U1800 The Boss of this Gym (Player Council + Kot
28th - August League Series (Player Council)

18th - Fall Invitational (Swkoll)
25th - Group Stage Invitational (Swkoll)

2nd & 3rd - Day 1 & 2 Fall Invitational (Swkol)
9th - October League Series (Player Council FAF)

6th - Mini LoTS #1 (Player Council FAF)
20th Mini LoTS #2 (Player Council FAF)

11th - Legend of the Stars Group (Player Council FAF)
18th & 19th - Legend of The Stars (Player Council FAF)

The above is subject to change, but as promised in my pledge and application, there are a few 1v1 focused events removed or lessened to make room for others. The total impact should be minimal and provide plenty of fun for the community at all levels.

"Pay TDs 20-30 bucks an event so they can buy themselves lunch/dinner + beer or juicebox (under 21 in US, Under 18 rest of the world)" (c)

Personally, I help everyone for the idea, even financially for small tournaments. I think it is not necessary to turn our work as a TD into a commerce for buying beer:D I only speak for myself, maybe others really want to get something in return...

just if someone went to do something not for the sake of the idea, then I usually do not see them for a long time

Makes a lot of sense to me to pay tournament directors and trainers/trainees. They do a lot more for FAF than a player playing a tournament once a year.

Then the question is with a trick - you offer to pay each participant in the organization and quality of the tournament, or only one TD. So I think you understand that any tournament is not the work of 1-2 people, but about 5-6 usually. As a result, $ 20 will already become$100...

You don't think that those who are usually indicated are just them and no one else? 😄

I often face the problem that for the participants of any tournament, they are not enough of the reward for which they spend half a day of time, or even more. And then the organizer will have to serve TD as well. This is labor-intensive and will hit some hard.

In any case, I speak only for myself. I think there are other TD's who also consciously do their job in the shadows and do not ask for anything in return. Otherwise, it will not create a very good environment. More scandals will start, God forbid...

Waiting for the prize lots to be cut 10 times in order to redirect them to the gap, crater, canis, and ze pass tournament and other low quality tournaments <KAPPA>


@thomashiatt said in Annual Tournament Proposal in Reply to Swkoll:

Makes a lot of sense to me to pay tournament directors and trainers/trainees. They do a lot more for FAF than a player playing a tournament once a year.

Beer for devs when?

You already demonstrated you are willing to work for nothing. Form a labor union or something.

I have no opinion on the tournaments but I do want to ask a few questions with regard to making funds available for people surrounding tournaments, such as a Tournament Director (TD).

I understand it is an idea from a pool of ideas e.g. it may not even be selected at all. But I do think the idea has merit, I just do not entirely agree with how it is applied.

Say we do stick with making funds available for them. This would involve spending money. I think this is something the association should decide on whether they find this desirable. As, if I understood correct, they in the end determine how the funds of the association are spent. @Sheeo could you shed light on this?

One clear issue is when a TD is underage. Giving money to underage people is not something FAF should be doing in my opinion.

As Robustness mentions, I think a TD should not do this for the funds that originate from FAF. Just as much as a map maker should not make maps and then be paid by FAF. I'm just not interested in more drama - this may just be another source. On the other hand, if an individual makes a request and pays someone to be TD or does a commission of some sort then that is fine, as the funds do not originate from FAF itself.

My suggestion instead of providing funds directly to the TD are the following:

  • Give the TD the option to spent the funds on another FAF event. As an example with completely no bias at all: they could add the funds to the prize pool of a map tournament.
  • Give the TD after doing X tournaments some 3D print that FAF sends to them as a thank you token, as a complete alternative to receiving funds. The largest cost factor here is package costs - printing these days is pretty cheap.

And last but certainly not least - I think the comment of askaholic is more a joke than a serious answer, but I feel it shows an issue. Will the next creative councillor make funds available for Mod makers? And will the next games councillor make funds available for people that work on the git issues? There are too few mod makers and people that work with the githubs. The precedent this sets is a bit scary, especially because it is part of an election promise. And I don't think making funds available for certain tasks should be part of such a promise. But - I think in general a (phyisical) reward system for long-term contributors would be greatly appreciated - something physical to have on your desk.

A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned

@jip said in Annual Tournament Proposal in Reply to Swkoll:

Say we do stick with making funds available for them. This would involve spending money. I think this is something the association should decide on whether they find this desirable. As, if I understood correct, they in the end determine how the funds of the association are spent. @Sheeo could you shed light on this?


A budget proposal is being worked on and will be announced when it's ready— I don't have a timeline but I know Swkoll is working on it and is open for input.

@Sheeo @Jip yeah I am simply pooling ideas and seeing if it is feasible as per what was revealed: we do not have all the answers. I agree it is a slippery slope, but maybe it is possible?

@Robustness , yeah, fair points. Hopefully some other ideas come to light or the rest is enticing enough?

The lack of TDs is a really tough problem and will require more than what I wrote above. It would have looked terrible to not suggest anything, though...

I will Say I stopped doing Public FAF Tournaments from the time investment from my end to set up and organise for then players to only get to round 3 do not like who their again and just forfeit the tournament as well as just lack of players willing to play a tournament that does not have a huge prize pool which is a shame that tournaments seem to be how much money is in the pot for me to win. All this has led me to just hosting small Internal tournaments were it all about having some fun and learning a bit of a competitive atmosphere.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock

This post is deleted!

I need to rewrite what I wrote in the td concern section as that is a “pool of ideas” and not immediate implementation.

My bad... should have made it more clear it’s being thought out still, hoping to make it less an issue.