Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1
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@ftxcommando said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
@sheeo said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Are you saying Downlord left because of me? Because I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
I know for a fact that Downlord had been quite sick of you even going back to just the simple introduction of 2 DevOps seats on the Council. He felt that the reason you did it was just to be able to act as the final decisionmaker in any development argument even though you gave up your DevOps seat to become Admin Councillor.
Okay well all due respect to Downlord and I don't think you can speak for him.
Objectively the seat was split because — and I talked about that for a long time — I wanted more developers on the council because they happen to be the people who are able to make the most change and have the most practical influence.
I don't believe I ever made any final decisions on development side things after I became administrative councilor.
Now I won't go so far as to say a power-grab situation had developed, but, that's the narrative I was told.
A lot of "stories" are told around here. It seems nobody cares to hear both perspectives before they make their own conclusions; pretty sure that's conducive to a very toxic environment in and of itself.
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Can a moderator please lock this thread? The gossip newspaper approach and timing is completely uncalled for.
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@sheeo said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
I have not been removed as councilor and the council hasn't been restructured; so for all practical purposes, I'm still administrative councillor and will remain so until a restructure has been decided on. That means I'm involved in day to day operations.
Great, feel free to come into the Council now and give input on votes we do now. I'm talking about the long term future beyond the transition period and I respect your intelligence enough to know you also are aware of that. No point in trying to deflect the crux of this paragraph with pedantic timeline arguments.
Another great example of your trolling argumentative style; attack personally instead of actually considering the subject matter.
Throwing an accusation back at a person when it logically fits them better is not trolling. The logic is above and sound. You have not addressed any aspect of the logic. Just attempted to avoid it through a timeline technicality that would be irrelevant in the long term.
The board cannot and should not "pledge" anything further than they already have. They are not bound specifically to the council structure and legally cannot permanently delegate away control to non-association members. We've had this discussion.
It's a pledge dude. The point is that the Board has total legal control but they need the Council to accomplish anything they actually want to do. If the contributors aren't on the side of the Board, then it's dead in the water. Same as when the Board isn't on the same page with the Council and just flat out say you can't do something like remove SteamLink.
You cannot accuse me of power-grabbing and creating an environment where I do not work with anyone when I've literally been arguing to create said environment and this pledge is the literal evidence of it.
The Board is not LEGALLY bound to anything. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have PRACTICAL limitations.
I can be removed. Are you really saying that I "baited" you into making disparaging remarks? How exactly did I do that?
No you are confusing the issue again and in fact contradicting yourself. You can be removed as President of the Board. But you still hold essentially total legal rights of FAF. So we remove you and then what? Can we remove you as Admin Councillor? No, we cannot. I know you cannot because we had a discussion on having Admin Councillor voted upon by the rest of the Council to be a "project manager" back when I was moving to make Council seats accountable by who they are meant to represent and you said that would essentially never be possible.
You said you were still Admin Councillor in the first response, so you know that you cannot be removed currently.
And in any case, this was all irrelevant to the point. You cannot be removed from the Council room by anyone in the Council room. You are the admin of the Zulip. That is what I mean by you not being able to be removed.
Yes, you did bait me into the response that finally resulted in me being removed for disparaging remarks. I intended to have a discussion about the reality between the total legal control of the Board and the actual day-to-day power held by Councillors and their contributive teams. You instead decided to paint it as a power-grab move by me and the accusation was so baseless that I responded in kind.
That's not what that means.
It means that until there's a use for the money; there's no reason to go out there and promote it and ask for more than we need. I did not make these decisions unilaterally. This was made in collaboration until you came along and decided it wasn't enough and wanted to spend more on tournaments, all by yourself, without asking or including anyone in a discussion about it first.
This was never said anywhere and is just ex-post facto justification. It's my fault that I didn't recognize this? Man, it was like a year ago when the Council even realized how much money was in the Patreon and that we lose like half of it due to income taxes! This literally shocked half the Council to total silence in the voice call!
That's great; why didn't you bring any of this up to the council? Why didn't you come up with actual uses before complaining that there aren't enough funds?
Because I had worked with Promotion Councillors in the past and they had failed to gain access to the Patreon. I considered the move a waste of time and instead went to consider other solutions.
This is why I had to talk to Swkoll about whether we need to create a new Patreon. This is a part of the reason why we have FAFLive.
There are still plenty of funds that can be used but no way in hell are you getting the right to spend them without discussing with the rest of the council, which quite clearly appears to be what you want — and what you have been doing with FAFLive.
Don't mind talking to the Council about the FAF Patreon funds. We don't even have an actual balance sheet of what funds are in the Patreon, where they have been spent, and how much goes into what expenditures. How am I supposed to discuss where to spend money when I don't even know what I'm working with?
You said you would set this up for the Council by the way. That never happened.
FAFLive funds are:
A - Gained by a team of TDs and casters willing to spend their time on gathering funds to fund more events
B - Fund distribution organized by said team in a channel open to all people contributing to FAFLive currently
C - I don't have any problem informing Brutus (the actual FAF Treasurer not you) about the fund spending and have also given him access to the account to see where the money comes from.But yes, I fail to see why I would consult the Council on FAFLive spending.
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Does anyone have an opinion about that we should stop toxicity from councilors?
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To those that asked me questions I thought some of them were pretty good points. I write up a proper response soon.
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@ftxcommando said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
@sheeo said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
I have not been removed as councilor and the council hasn't been restructured; so for all practical purposes, I'm still administrative councillor and will remain so until a restructure has been decided on. That means I'm involved in day to day operations.
Great, feel free to come into the Council now and give input on votes we do now. I'm talking about the long term future beyond the transition period and I respect your intelligence enough to know you also are aware of that. No point in trying to deflect the crux of this paragraph with pedantic timeline arguments.
What "pedantic timeline arguments"?
Another great example of your trolling argumentative style; attack personally instead of actually considering the subject matter.
Throwing an accusation back at a person when it logically fits them better is not trolling. The logic is above and sound. You have not addressed any aspect of the logic. Just attempted to avoid it through a timeline technicality that would be irrelevant in the long term.
The "logic" you're saying I didn't defend is that somehow I'm power grabbing; yet all the FAF time I've spent this year on—outside of utterly needless debates with you— has been setting up the association and facilitating a transfer of the IP to a group of people.
I did not feel like I needed to explain that.
The board cannot and should not "pledge" anything further than they already have. They are not bound specifically to the council structure and legally cannot permanently delegate away control to non-association members. We've had this discussion.
It's a pledge dude. The point is that the Board has total legal control but they need the Council to accomplish anything they actually want to do. If the contributors aren't on the side of the Board, then it's dead in the water. Same as when the Board isn't on the same page with the Council and just flat out say you can't do something like remove SteamLink.
You're not familiar with Danish law; I'm familiar enough to know that this is not something the association should put into writing, or it might risk losing it's association status. Is your egoistic need for retributtal signature of what you're derogating to be "just a pledge dude" so important that you're willing to risk the legal structure of FAF?
You cannot accuse me of power-grabbing and creating an environment where I do not work with anyone when I've literally been arguing to create said environment and this pledge is the literal evidence of it.
The Board is not LEGALLY bound to anything. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have PRACTICAL limitations.
The board will work with and collaborate with anyone who shares the objectives enshrined into the statutes; which you helped write.
It's more than sufficient.
I can be removed. Are you really saying that I "baited" you into making disparaging remarks? How exactly did I do that?
No you are confusing the issue again and in fact contradicting yourself.
Contradicting myself how?
You can be removed as President of the Board.
That's not what I was referring to.
But you still hold essentially total legal rights of FAF.
Who gave you that idea?
So we remove you and then what? Can we remove you as Admin Councillor? No, we cannot.
You could, if you'd opted to become a part of the association and have voting rights at the general assembly. Instead you opted to leave because you didn't get your way.
I know you cannot because we had a discussion on having Admin Councillor voted upon by the rest of the Council to be a "project manager" back when I was moving to make Council seats accountable by who they are meant to represent and you said that would essentially never be possible.
I said that under the current ownership and legal structure that wouldn't be possible.
And in any case, this was all irrelevant to the point. You cannot be removed from the Council room by anyone in the Council room. You are the admin of the Zulip. That is what I mean by you not being able to be removed.
I don't think I'm the only admin of the zulip. I certainly didn't set it up.
Yes, you did bait me into the response that finally resulted in me being removed for disparaging remarks. I intended to have a discussion about the reality between the total legal control of the Board and the actual day-to-day power held by Councillors and their contributive teams. You instead decided to paint it as a power-grab move by me and the accusation was so baseless that I responded in kind.
It's not baseless.
You have been making power-grabbing moves for a long time and refusing to accept when a group of peers disagree with your views; to the point of reacting quite wildly. If anything this is another proof of that.
That's not what that means.
It means that until there's a use for the money; there's no reason to go out there and promote it and ask for more than we need. I did not make these decisions unilaterally. This was made in collaboration until you came along and decided it wasn't enough and wanted to spend more on tournaments, all by yourself, without asking or including anyone in a discussion about it first.
This was never said anywhere and is just ex-post facto justification. It's my fault that I didn't recognize this? Man, it was like a year ago when the Council even realized how much money was in the Patreon and that we lose like half of it due to income taxes! This literally shocked half the Council to total silence in the voice call!
Yes; another reason why I didn't feel like promoting it further until the association legal structure was setup so we didn't have to absurdly high taxes on it. You were present on that call so how is this ex-post facto justification?
You've been pestering me about payment and donations all year despite knowing that the tax situation wasn't resolved and yet you went out of your way to order a payout in my name regardless. Come on.
That's great; why didn't you bring any of this up to the council? Why didn't you come up with actual uses before complaining that there aren't enough funds?
Because I had worked with Promotion Councillors in the past and they had failed to gain access to the Patreon. I considered the move a waste of time and instead went to consider other solutions.
You've mentioned one councilor and I've never refused him access.
This is why I had to talk to Swkoll about whether we need to create a new Patreon.
You never thought to chat with me about this as well? Or ask for a bigger tournament budget?
A logical place to go to regarding a new patreon or other source of income would be me.
This is a part of the reason why we have FAFLive.
And you did go to me for this. You had me sign the tax paperwork and consider it an official source of FAF funds.
Then you went ahead and withdrew it to your personal paypal without noticing or discussing it with me or anyone in the council.
While knowing that the tax situation wasn't resolved and while I had explicitly asked you to await with any payouts until the association bank accounts were up.
There are still plenty of funds that can be used but no way in hell are you getting the right to spend them without discussing with the rest of the council, which quite clearly appears to be what you want — and what you have been doing with FAFLive.
Don't mind it. We don't even have an actual balance sheet of what funds are in the Patreon, where they have been spent, and how much goes into what expenditures. How am I supposed to discuss where to spend money when I don't even know what I'm working with?
The bank accounts are setup and in due time you'll have all this information. The board is going to discuss how that's going to work.
You said you would set this up for the Council by the way. That never happened.
I last gave an overview at the association meeting, which you attended. Anyone else who's asked in the council has received the information; and I have given statements before to the entire council on calls.
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I have thoughts -
Not gonna get into the nine/tatsu business, gonna focus down.
FAF had a toxicity problem from the top to the bottom, and it has had it for nearly a decade. The toxicity and lack of dealing with it has left a long trail of casualties in the community, myself included.
I am not going to be naming any names, but here are the thoughts.
If someone is toxic/trolling/irresponsible, their contributions should not be considered when weighing removal or censorship. It doesn't matter if they have made 35 commits, or done a bunch of mod work.... Toxic is toxic, and that crap needs to be cut out of the community.
Opening the client should not be a trauma risk. There have been occasions where I regretted opening FAF on stream, whether it's users named for genital diseases discussing the merits of slavery in the main chat, or strings of slurs as game titles hosted in the multiplayer tab, or getting into a game and being abused continually until the offending player throws the game and some slurs on the way out. Why. Is. There. Not. A. Word. Blacklist. In. The. Client. This is incredibly basic stuff in community management, but for some reason FAF doesn't have it and the people in charge of community/moderation do little to reign it in with permanent/decisive actions.
The councilors should not hold their positions if they cannot conduct themselves professionally. Period. Name-calling, derision, inappropriate gossip/public appeals, mistreatment in any way of a player or community member who approaches them.... If they can't conduct themselves decently, they can't hold a position where they affect FAF.
Maybe this time around something will come of this discussion, but I don't hold out much hope. I got tired of trying a long time ago, and at this point I basically don't interact at all with the main FAF community. It just isn't worth it.
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@nine2
I think its pretty damn simple to be honest.
This is from a regular players point of view.Not someone from past council, not someone who is dumb, someone who keeps up to date and keeps informed.
From a players view point.
It would appear that members of the council are "abusing" their powers.
PURE AND SIMPLE.FTX is the only councillor minus Biass and a few others that actually play or chat to people regarding FAF.
We as players are not even aloud to know who is on the board. Despite being told one of the reasons for the bloody board was transparency.
To a player based on this thread it would honestly appear you care more about protecting yourself, slandering someone during an election, and trying to protect your game in development than you do care about your responsibilities as a FAF councillor.
Using the little work around oh its not the official discord so it does not break the rules.
Im putting this pure and fucking simple.
If you want to stop toxicity in councillors and discussions.
EVERYONE, I MEAN EVERYONE is held to the exact same standard and rules regardless of their rank/position or "Job" title.There needs to be transparency between everyone.
ALL THE TIME.I want to see this game develop more and becomes greater than it ever has.
But from a players view point. We have not seen half the council actually do anything.Sheeo the patreon page was last updated in 2017 - why is this not updated?
Gyle updates more.Nine2 - I want it publicly stated whether the Russian Discord has the same rules applied to it as the official discord.
I then want it publicly stated whether a councillor broke the official rules in relation to postings in the discord.The rest of you shut up and learn to work together.
Is it really that difficult.From players point of view this place is run like scam call center.
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@brnkoinsanity said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
I have thoughts -
Not gonna get into the nine/tatsu business, gonna focus down.
FAF had a toxicity problem from the top to the bottom, and it has had it for nearly a decade. The toxicity and lack of dealing with it has left a long trail of casualties in the community, myself included.
I am not going to be naming any names, but here are the thoughts.
If someone is toxic/trolling/irresponsible, their contributions should not be considered when weighing removal or censorship. It doesn't matter if they have made 35 commits, or done a bunch of mod work.... Toxic is toxic, and that crap needs to be cut out of the community.
Opening the client should not be a trauma risk. There have been occasions where I regretted opening FAF on stream, whether it's users named for genital diseases discussing the merits of slavery in the main chat, or strings of slurs as game titles hosted in the multiplayer tab, or getting into a game and being abused continually until the offending player throws the game and some slurs on the way out. Why. Is. There. Not. A. Word. Blacklist. In. The. Client. This is incredibly basic stuff in community management, but for some reason FAF doesn't have it and the people in charge of community/moderation do little to reign it in with permanent/decisive actions.
The councilors should not hold their positions if they cannot conduct themselves professionally. Period. Name-calling, derision, inappropriate gossip/public appeals, mistreatment in any way of a player or community member who approaches them.... If they can't conduct themselves decently, they can't hold a position where they affect FAF.
Maybe this time around something will come of this discussion, but I don't hold out much hope. I got tired of trying a long time ago, and at this point I basically don't interact at all with the main FAF community. It just isn't worth it.
Honestly:
Brink if you believe this you should name names. -
@noonecares said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
FTX is the only councillor minus Biass and a few others that actually play or chat to people regarding FAF.
I play occasionally; but very rarely. The toxic environment is a big reason why I don't.
We as players are not even aloud to know who is on the board. Despite being told one of the reasons for the bloody board was transparency.
The board isn't managing day-to-day things so why do you need to know who's on it? You can contact me or anyone from the council about any concerns you might have and they will bring it to the board eventually if it needs to go there.
I'm not against having the list be public but precisely because of toxicity I want board members to have the option to remain private; so they don't get hate-mail from random players.
If you want to engage you have the full right to attend the general assembly and be present to vote on the members and know who are elected.
There needs to be transparency between everyone.
ALL THE TIME.There just can't.
The moderators need to be able to discuss moderation things in private. The exact financial transactions need to remain private to protect personal information. We have to comply with various legislation and can't just make everything completely transparent.
Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to informing everyone as much as we can; and that's always been a consistent point of failure of the council.
I want to see this game develop more and becomes greater than it ever has.
But from a players view point. We have not seen half the council actually do anything.I agree the council as currently structured hasn't been very effective. It has eroded over time.
If you want to provide input on how you think this can be improved, I for one am all ears — and this is on the agenda of the board to discuss.
Sheeo the patreon page was last updated in 2017 -
why is this not updated?I explained this above in my responses to FtX. But the short story is:
- We don't have an explicit need for more money, so promoting it or maintaining it has not been a priority. That being said, I'm not against starting to do that.
- Until the tax situation was resolved with the formation of the association; spending money from the patreon incurred undesirable income taxes.
The rest of you shut up and learn to work together.
Is it really that difficult.It's difficult working with someone who constantly attacks your person when there's any form of disagreement.
From players point of view this place is run like scam call center.
At least those have nice people who respond to your phone calls. They go out of your way to not be toxic
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Honestly:
Brink if you believe this you should name names.Naming names turns it into a brawl. If we can't agree that problems exist, and that they should be solved in a certain way, then the names do not matter.
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Disagree Brink, if you don't name names, it becomes a generalistic 'community' problem. If its same 3-4 people in Aeolus doing this? Why shouldn't we call them out. I can say "I feel Aeolus is generally toxic as everytime I log in I see the promotion of assault and murder of people in my hometown". But in doing so gives those people cover and makes it a generalist "avoid Aeolus solution" and in doing so avoid the problems and doesn't solve it.
Like I don't think there is toxicity Brink. But I feel there are individuals within Aeolus, Silly_Noob and others that are toxic. Them promoting the views that caused the death of 5 people where I live, whom do make it Toxic.
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@dragun101 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Disagree Brink, if you don't name names, it becomes a generalistic 'community' problem. If its same 3-4 people in Aeolus doing this? Why shouldn't we call them out. I can say "I feel Aeolus is generally toxic as everytime I log in I see the promotion of assault and murder of people in my hometown". But in doing so gives those people cover and makes it a generalist "avoid Aeolus solution" and in doing so avoid the problems and doesn't solve it.
Like I don't think there is toxicity Brink. But I feel there are individuals within Aeolus, Silly_Noob and others that are toxic. Them promoting the views that caused the death of 5 people where I live, whom do make it Toxic.
I agree with Brink; and others have— as I mentioned earlier— also left the community on this basis.
Nine is the latest in a long list of persons who have told me about this.
It is very much a community problem and it serves no purpose to call out individuals right here and have it derive into personal attacks. We have to discuss the root of the problem which quite clearly lies elsewhere.
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Fair fair Sheeo, I assume will be discussed tomorrow
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Jesus Christ people what are you even talking about
I know I don't do much dev work, but please, please listen to my heartfelt plea. I know it's hard to do when we're 100 posts deep into accusation and hurt feelings, but it's just a videogame. There's no reason for any of this drama to exist.
I'm not the kind of person that likes the "toxicity + inclusiveness + CoC" HR nonsense, but maybe we can accept some provisional rules to get this thing under control. I don't want another ZeP episode over nothing.
- Assume good faith, even when first impression tells you not to. We're all adults here, we should assume by default that we're not driven by pettiness, even if we sometimes lash out.
- Get angry in proportion. Being direct and sometimes offensive is fine, if the thing at hand warrants this approach. If something is bullshit about a thing, call it bullshit. If we ban getting angry, people will vent through underhanded office politics bullshit. OTOH no one is obliged to respond to every rant and people who rant all the time start being ignored, so save them for things that really matter.
- When in doubt, deescalate. If things get too heated, deescalate first. Get someone else to arbitrate. If you're a bystander, support the person that chose not to escalate, not in what they're arguing about, but in their stance. An argument is a dollar auction game and beyond some point betting higher should be made not worth it.
Can we all agree to this? I hate to see people who contributed this much more to FAF than me lose it over petty nonsense.
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Ah lovely shitstorm. And this ugly forum...
Yes, I did post announcement about Sanctuary RTS in Ru discord. Because I considered it to be a FAF project in a first place. It is being developed by people who worked on FAF here and there, it was planned to be free to play an it is being created based on community feedback (which mainly consists of FAF players). (correction i had info about it being f2p by the moment i posted it, but apparently it isn't - my bad XD)
Creating mod based on 15 years old game engine with its source code being held in Square Enix is better?
Then why posting about Plannetary annihilation on forums wasn't a problem when kickstarter campaing took place? If it wasn't for FAF i would never knew about PA. If it wasn't for FAF i would never knew about Zero-K when it got steam release.
The discord post i made is not a problem of this conversation and i'm going to tell you why. What happened to it? It is still there!
It is already second post about Sanctuary RTS and they both are still there! Nobody tried to reach me about it. Nobody tried to give me a warning after posting them. Nobody tried to ask or force me to remove them. Very likely nobody reached ZLO or Sid so they remove it instead of me.
When this council shitstorm started nine reached me and in result i had to change some parts of text.
I was open for chat and waiting for someone knocking on my doorstep trying to threaten me, but nobody did. Because NOBODY ACTUALLY CARES!
Instead some councilors use this post to throw shit at each other in public. This proves that the actual issue is personal relationships between multiple mature people.
And btw, Louvenarde wrote FAF rules and FtXCommando using links to those rules after he pushed her out of FAF is kinda funny...
haha
haha
ha
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I had a summer reading goal. Thanks guys for providing me with enough stuff to read so I don't have to go buy books!
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I think it's in the best interests of FAF if we as a community try to be cooperative and amicable. We should move away from the personal attacks and toxicity and move towards a constructive dialogue focused on problem-solving. Let's figure out what we should do with friendly and cooperative discourse. Thank you.
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I don't think it's really a good thing to have a separate RTS advertised on FAF related platforms by those financially/otherwise invested in it, but I also don't think that people invested in these ordeals should be discredited when they have a criticism of a part of FAF simply because they could potentially gain finacially/otherwise.
I also would like to state that toxicity occurs in all aspects of leadership, upper management, etc. I believe that is simply just how people who make it to those bigger positions are, you have to have an ego, and egos tend to clash with one another. I will take FTXcommando for example. He spends a lot of his free time invested in this community and carefully crafts his posts about tournaments, balance, general management and the like, while also organizing events, none of which he has to do, because he himself cares about making this community better. I would not expect anyone without strong convictions to be able to do that, and people with strong convictions usually lean towards to the more toxic side of things when disagreements arise.
I don't think airing dirty laundry is really relevant at all to this community, everything should be based on merit, and what you have to bring to the table. Sure, I do believe steps can be taken to make the FAF community as whole a less toxic environment, but I think once you step behind the curtain, that toxicity is irrelevant in the face of actual results. Trying to make the people running FAF less toxic to each other should have a low priority compared to finding the right people to do the job of building up and refining the community/FAF itself.
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Part of the issue is that many of the big contributors to FAF have left/stopped contributing as a result of toxicity, and if we allow the toxicity to continue, many more contributors will stop contributing to FAF as a result of toxicity in the future.
Also, some substantial portion of the 21,000 newish players that FAF loses each year are lost due to toxicity. I have talked to numerous people about this, and I believe that the number of people lost to toxicity is in the thousands per year.
Imagine if FAF had 10,000 more active users. Imagine how many of them would eventually become serious contributors.
Imagine how much better FAF could be if we didn't lose so many potential players and so many already great contributors as a result of toxicity.
Surely, something substantial should be done to curb that toxicity.
